Redykeulous,

I am still trying to find you. ... where you are.......

You seem to be grounded in the physical/material/mental world of scientific thought.

I see reality as being constructed of waves. Reflected light and energy and thoughts. You probably see it as material mass. Things measured by the senses.

Mass is what? Atoms, energy, particles. All are waves when you get too close. Even a particle does not exist as mass, but more of a standing wave.

All is energy and information when you get down to it. Mass is information stored, ~~or memory.

All cells, every single atom, is full of energy and information.
(You talk of brains and things....and human intellect.)

I see that everything is connected.... collective unconscious thought. This is not "fantasy."

Prove me wrong.

JB

Atheists often feel that they need no proof. They often suggest that they just go by what they 'know' and nothing more.

But in truth they don't 'know' anything. Usually they are really just agnostics who have given up trying.

Sorry, Di, but it's true.

The universe is illogical. The idea that anything could have ever gotten started in the first place is illogical. The idea that any kind of a priori substance could have gotten started is illogical.

In fact, all logic is based on experience. Take away all experience and logic has no meaning.

I don't care what anyone says, the universe is a mystical place. Everything that we see happening around is is no less magical than in a Harry Potter movie. The only reason we don't think of it as being magical is because we've become so darn used to it that we accept it as the 'norm'.

But if you had lived your entire life in an ethereal world where nothing had any substance, and one day you bumped into a tree, you scream and say, "Oh my God! Look! I can TOUCH this thing!!!"

It would seem like magic to you!

We live in a fairy tale. And I’m going to redesign my kitchen to match it.

May I add – “truth is information” that one believes has validity. The rest is spoken like a true goddess!! I once “corrected” Creative for his affinity to ‘re-define’ words. Stop it you guys, you confuse me!



I’m glad you share it, it makes for good conversation. I really think, you don’t give yourself enough credit. For example: you can put out an idea that states;

“Original source did not exist as a "thing of any substance" it only existed as "I AM" awareness. An idea perhaps.”

But I’m gonna sit here, making some weird kinda face thinking “what?” Than I’m going to make up some explanation like “oh, she’s considering the first time any entity might have developed awareness” But after that I’m not creative enough to make up what could come next or maybe I fail to find a wothy enough reason to waste my time on a fairy tale!




Weird face and a low whispering “what?” So if you can make up a story that gives your believe a logical path of progression, then you have made sense of the illogical? Is that it?



I have to disagree with you. All information is not equal in value. Also, whatever you think the “big questions” are, you won’t find any answers by refusing to follow a scientific course. You can make your answers up, but they will not stem from any more insight than the base of knowledge you have fed into your intellect.

If all you ever LEARN are other peoples “stories” all you will ever believe will come from a collection of fairy tales. There is a reason the scientific community refuses to look at the “information” you read. It’s because they are re-defining words that can not be re-defined and hold validity. It’s because they make statements that have not preface in fact or even in logic. Without a logical beginning what reason do we have to believe the ending is worth more?




You don’t fail to conform, you fail to grow for fear of conforming. Don’t let what you hold contempt for, hold you back from what you can achieve. Believe whatever you will, but make it worthy of all the effort you are putting into it.

See now I told you that atheists view me as having a "belief" or as being in "fantasy land" and on another thread, Feralcatlady totally sees me as an godless atheist.

I really don't give a tinker's damn. They are both in a very small box in my opinion. They are both holding tightly onto their own belief systems.

We are all connected. Prove me wrong.

JB

The three dimensional universe is holographic. It is a thought created universe.

Somebody please... prove me wrong. I didn't really want to think I am living in a holodeck.... but that is my current conclusion until new evidence is found.

No I don't.......I think you can be whatever it is you want sweet lady.....No one can put you in a box my sweet....and when and if there is something you need in your life....you will seek it.



Besides that I have learned from you alot.......and I like how you think....may not always agree...but who cares.....I still can like alot of what you have to say and not always agree....It's the beauty of our friendship.....gigglesnort b

I am not without imagination. When I read scientific papers about the latest theories, or even Abra's excellent explanations of quarks and black matter and vortexes etc, etc, I "imagine" the possibilities. But I don't make up stories to feed my beliefs.



I can’t disprove god because it’s a belief, how can I disprove your idea that motion fueled by energy creates thought, if that’s what you believe? It’s not logical to me because I think there has to be intelligence for there to be thought or thought processes and YOU have proven nothing to indicate there is intelligence. How can I prove you think, unless I can hook you up to an MRI or some other scanner and see your brain functioning? How do we collect a wave of motion to see the thought therein?



Ok, I would have to look this up because the amount of knowledge I have is not consistent with your statement. I would ask you what theory or theories you are basing this statement on?



So explain to me how mass is held together? Explain to me the information the mass of a rock holds? Explain to me why the energy contained in an asteroid is not enough to stop it from plunging through space? Prove to me that your theory is valid IN SOME FASHION and not just a fairy tale.



I talk of brains and human intellect because it forms the basis of our knowledge. From it we learn how thought is produced; what is required for cognition. And you talk of thought that emanates from movement in space.



The, everything, connected idea is not to scoff at, but a collective unconscious when referring to the universe is a bit of an oxymoron. If everything is connected and the universe is one, then the universe is a ‘group’ of one. Is it conscious or not? Define what conscious is, and explain the reason the universe would have an unconscious collective? To me the unconscious is not something we think about so what is the purpose of it in a living universe?

Answer my questions without stories and made up facts and YOU PROVE TO ME that you are not making up a new religion.

I would love to see this done again.....in very very simplistic terms...and/or laymans terms for all to understand.....

Be very very careful you are starting to have the tone of a fundamentalist.

Our poste overlapping, I answer one and you have another. Sorry if their not making sense.

Ok my beliefs. I'm a living breathing thinking and aware being. I am here through a servies of evolutionaly, random events that culminated with the mating of my parents that formed me.

What do I know of the universe? No where near as much as a scientist. I do not believe I owe my existence to any deity, in fact I don't believe in deities at all.

I don't believe I am controlled by any intelligent outside universal force.

I believe when this body ceases to function I will cease to exist.

When I look for answers to questions, I look for answers that may best benefit humanity and the human condition. If I have questions that science has can not answer I wonder. But if science doesn't have the answer then there are other questions more important to us, now, that are closer to being answered and those are the ones I support.

When I see others using bits and pieces of scientific theory to add to existing belief systems or possibly creating whole new ones I worry. We have seen the effect of what belief systems in this world, we don't need new ones.

So for that reason, when I see stories like the ones you are fabricating I worry. Perhaps you will change your beliefs, perhaps you will form the next "Heavens Gate" so what can I do?

I can demand that YOU prove to me there is some validity in what you are thinking. I make you responsible for the possible actions your ideas may bring to bear. I can hope that appeals to your intelligence will make you a more discerning critical thinker.

As you have said - that is all I can do.

Proof is always a matter of belief. I cannot prove anything to you, but I can tell you a little about why I hold this picture of reality. But if you want some of my recent information here it is:

I can tell you that I am very impressed with a book called "The Holographic Universe." By Michael Talbot

Here is the description of the Book:

"Today nearly everyone is familiar with holograms, three-dimensional images projected into space with the aid of a laser.

Now, two of the world's most eminent thinkers -- University of London physicists David Bohm, a former protege of Einstein's and one of the world's most respected quantum physicists, and Stanford neurophysiologist Karl Pribram, one of the architects of our modern understanding of the brain -- believe that the universe itself may be a giant hologram, quite literally a kind of image or construct created, at least in part, by the human mind. This remarkable new way of looking at the universe explains now only many of the unsolved puzzles of physics, but also such mysterious occurrences as telepathy, out-of-body and near death experiences, "lucid" dreams, and even religious and mystical experiences such as feelings of cosmic unity and miraculous healings.

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I am also impressed with this guy:

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/

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There is also a book called "The Field" by Lynne Mctaggart. But I have not studied it in depth. Its interesting.

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Also recently the nature of gravity has been questioned. It is not acting quite like our current knowledge of it say it should.

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Not to mention my own personal experience with out of body projections and remote viewing. But I would never presume to offer that as proof for someone else. It could be explored personally at the Monroe institute if a person was inclined to be curious.

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here's a wrench in the spokes of the wheel.

No pun intended. I believe it is pertinent and quite relevant to your discussion, ladies.

View me as just an aside, like background traffic.

But even Christians don't quite know what to make of this, and for the most part should, being that the mind that was in Christ is offered as though there exists a supernatural intelligence to influence one's actions and behavior in conformance to benevolence at the very least.

It is written that Jesus said this.

"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the knigdom of God is come upon you."

Pharoahs seers said the same thing about fighting with the 'finger of God' when they tried to outdo the miracles performed at Moses' word, before the tribes found themselves embarking on a fourty year trek into Palestine.

Such obscurities are intriguing when viewed in light of your exchange.


peace

Fair enough. But I think the effort would be a futile waste of time on my part. I can't possibly lay out for you my entire life's experiences or conclusions and the reasons for them, and I really don't have the time. If you want to dismiss them that is okay by me. I am more into metaphysics than science or religion.

But unless you have proof to the contrary, I don't think you should be calling my ideas "fantasy" as if they have no value. That is just your opinion. All information has value.

JB

Now I feel surrounded. Stuck in the middle of an atheist and a born again Christian.

Its time for bed. geeeeze.

All of these labels are silly.

The best you can do is try to take a historical approach like I do most of the time.

creative wouldee abra and Jeanniebean You guys and gal are great.

You are quite brash and turn your ignorance around on to other. I admit I am ignorant, I am trying to learn.

I have taken a lot of time to give YOU scientific proof to support my words. You, on the other hand, have given me many websites and books in the past. You have scoffed at my believe in the science of the brain and how we think. But find it offensive that I call your creative beliefs fantasy.

I have even taken the time to look several of your suggested reading materials up.

I have sent comments and I believe I even sent a 'commentary' on one.

I have attempted to explain whey these 'reads' are not considered to be valid and why it does not behoove you to continue to read such things. If you like I will send you a critique on how to discern valid websites and such.

Now you think, as every fundamentalist does, that every one is against you, trying to label you, EVEN TRYING TO SAY YOU HAVE A BELIEF. DO YOU? OH yea - last night it was holographic universe.

You write make-belive and it's not based on fact offered in books or you would be glad to expalain them as I have attempted to do, as Abra as done. Or it could be you just don't understand all you read and instead you fill in what you don't know with something that fits your agends. THAT IS FANTASY plain and simple.

As I've said you can form any belief system you want and it will simply be a fantasy UNLESS you find other believers. Then it will be a religion.

Is that what you are looking for, someone to confirm your beliefs? Because you have not been willing to confirm them yourself. Do you think you will be the link the writer whose story provides science with that last theoretical link that will prove YOU WERE RIGHT?

Again, THAT, is fundamentalist thinking. You are falling deeper and deeping into that label JB. For someone who does not want a lable you are clearly pasting the signs all over.

No you haven't

The list of scientists and doctors referenced in The Book "The Holographic Universe" is extensive and impressive, and one of them is a leading Stanford neurophysiologist Karl Pribram. He is one of the architects of our modern understanding of the brain.

Go tell them that their ideas are "fantasy."

I really don't know what bothers you so much. My ideas of the nature of reality are supported by science and many respected authorities. I am not trying to convert any one or start a religion.

I have no beliefs. THEY ARE CONSIDERATIONS. I consider things loosely. I don't claim that I am right or that I have the answers. I certainly don't believe in worshiping deities, so I don't know what your problem is.

I SUSPECT we live in a holographic type universe, but it is very much more complicated and intricate ... unimaginatively so.

You know that matter and energy are the same thing right? E=mc2

You know that an atom is mostly empty space, and yet it contains enough energy to blow up a city. Right?

(The scientific community would have laughed at that if they had not seen it for themselves.)

What do you suppose keeps you together? You are nothing but atoms and empty space.

Our current accepted scientific information about gravity is wrong.

~~Quantum science has the answer to these things and quantum science will not conflict with current science. In fact it will solve many problems and provide answers to many questions.

JB