But WHO is defining that morality? Who exactly are WE to define personal behaviors as right or wrong? Because a book or a politician outlaws it it is automatically the gospel? Bull!

I don't think anyone is going to sit here and say that there aren't certain moral absolutes. The problem is......we have created absolutes that really have no basis in reality simply because others have told us they are right or wrong, such as with homosexuality among other things. The ONLY moral absolutes that really need exist are don't harm another person/step over their rights to life, liberty and happiness, and don't harm yourself. Anything else......is relative to the person, no matter what any politician, or any church may say different.

We need to get off our damn high horses and stop trying to push our PERSONAL morality onto people be them kids or adults alike, and learn to live and let live. If something isn't for you, or doesn't work for you, then fine don't do it. But just because someone else chooses to, doesn't make them automatically wrong. Everyone is different, something you again said yourself.......or is everyone supposed to be the same? Can't be both either we're all different, or we're not.

what exactly do you mean by that? non-religious?

The one thing you're right on is that a religious environment is no different than a school environment. That is to say they BOTH brainwash people and teach little more than obedience to what they say with little to no true thinking for oneself allowed if it goes against it. So you are quite right there......

And as far as the abuse thing being illogical I don't think it is at all. To tell a kid that God expects this this and this out of you, and if you don't do those things or if you do something else God disapproves of, he won't be pleased with you at the very least, I believe that is very much abuse of the mental variety, no matter how good intentioned you may be. You know what they say about that road to hell......

Call it extreme if you wish I don't care frankly, I cannot in good conscience condone that type of garbage pushed onto an innocent child whose mind is still forming. That type of thing screwed up my mine for years, be damned if I'm gonna sit tightlipped while it happens to others.

Further. what one teaches in religion is FAR different from teaching history or love of country (though love of country comes close) as in few other places is there that some fear attached to decision making and belief sets. Religion holds that attachment moreso than the others do, no matter how much you may wanna argue that. It's on a whole other level from other things you teach because you can't deviate without punishment according to it.

And no one is saying you can't or shouldn't guide your children in one way or another as you grow, all kids need that to some degree, but you can guide WITHOUT bringing in your own personal bias into that. Just cause YOU believe one thing doesn't mean they should have to or be subjected to it if they don't want it.

You can separate the two and I think people should.....let em find their own paths, be there for them but don't force them. Not that hard, it's really not, just have to let go of your own ego to make them what you want them to be to let them become who they want to be in their own way. I really think parents would have much better relationships to their kids if they learned how to do that.....to let go of trying to control so much. But.....that's just me.

forget Wrestlemania 29 lol, The Raw AFTER was incredible, an ELECTRIC crowd! Only wish they were always that good these days! And Ziggler finally cashed MITB in! What an awesome moment that was! No one deserved it more! So happy for him! May not have been his Wrestlemania moment, but was as close as you could get to it!

Right, problem is a lot don't seem to understand the difference between the two, especially in a religious setting.

And I agree with you, I also think that diets, lifestyle choices, etc and religion are not the same here. Yes some can still take those things too far in the raising of a child, so it can create a similar problem but generally speaking it isn't the same type of thing.

There's no fear involved over doing or not doing one thing or another like you see in religion and as you say religion can be quite a bit more complex. It's a whole separate deal those things.

Maybe, but I still don't like it, particularly when it comes to spiritual belief.....other things such as diets and exercise I can understand a bit more depending on how far they are going, but spiritually speaking it should be a personal thing, not something forced onto them by someone else before they really even know anything about it.

I agree with that last part, BUT don't even try and tell me the religious right doesn't try to mold kids into their image......cause they damn well do and I don't like it. It's wrong to me to force a belief system on them before they can choose it on their own. Teach them basic morals, guide them as they grow, fine, but when you start telling them that such and such is the truth you must believe, teaching them to judge based on it, etc etc....that's where you cross a line. Maybe I'm biased cause of my own experiences, but every child should be given the chance to think for themselves without something like religion influencing it.

I tend to disagree, I don't think a parent has the right to mold a child's mind one way or the other in the religious sense or even some others, but moreso in that way.

I think it's borderline child abuse to some degree actually, and I know that is controversial to say but I just don't think a child should be subjected to religious brainwashing by a parent like that.

You can teach them morals WITHOUT teaching them absolutes in terms of how to think or what to believe. They should be allowed to decide that on their own when they are capable of doing so.

That's fine, FOR YOU, but it's not gonna work that way for everyone. If it works for you that's great, but it shouldn't be treated as an absolute deal, others may find other paths that suit them better. You said it yourself everyone is different.

And that's good that you had the choice to keep going or not, but really I think that a child shouldn't be exposed to that type of thing until they are of an age where they can fully comprehend what they are being told. By the time they get to a point where they can make a choice, it's not as informed a choice as it could be, because they grew up in it and it formed how they thought before they even knew what they were learning. They grow up with that reality, and it's harder to break from it if they decided they wanted to. That's not even including the fact that in a lot of religious families, don't know about yours but was the case in mine anyway, there's a stigma to leaving the church as well. So kids are faced with a pressure to conform to everyone else in addition to really having a lack of an informed choice as they never were taught anything different. It's just not a good thing in either instance.

So yeah I'd keep the church and religious stuff for the adults and those who can grasp it, let the kids be kids for a while is how I see it. They can decide on what path they choose when they are old enough.



I agree with that, which is again where the parents need to come in. The parents need to be educating their kids about things like this, not just telling them no without really telling them why. As I say, start a dialogue about things, it will help them and you both. Shoving it under the rug and expecting them to ignore things like they aren't there hasn't done any good for anyone, child or parent alike. It's time for a different approach and take off the kid gloves with something like this, and frankly alcohol too honestly, because the approach we take to both now doesn't work.

And as for choices.....yes we always have choices to make and they all have consequences good or bad. That said, particularly sexual speaking but in other ways too I suppose, we all have different desires/feelings/needs..and we don't necessarily have full control over those at the base level. How we handle them and react to them maybe yes, but they will always be there for people regardless, those things we don't really choose as much as they choose us. You can't always control who you fall in love with or even lust for.....how you respond to those feelings you can, but not the base feeling in a lot of cases. That's where I'd draw the line at choices, can choose how we act, but not always what we think.

I still think a lot of that though is just out of rebellion......if you're constantly being told, no, no, no, without much reason why, how are you going to react? You're going to want whatever you're told you can't have more. That's human nature. If kids had an open dialogue with their parents, if parents would actually LISTEN to their kids and try to UNDERSTAND where they are coming from on things, instead of just trying to dictate fully to them everything they do.....I don't think you'd have this problem I truly don't. The parents I think in their "do as I say because I say so" attitude cause the disconnect more than the kids do. Parents need to TALK to their kids more not just rule with an iron fist all the time. Tell them WHY you feel how you do on something, and try to understand WHY they feel how they do, instead of just thumbing your nose for one reason or another. I think you'd have much better relationships that way.

Whether you think a child needs sex or not....children are curious by nature, and as they become preteens and teens, they are going to become sexually curious as their bodies start to change and puberty sets in. That's just a fact of life, and you can't tell me any different, we've ALL gone through that. It amazes me sometimes how soon we forget what it was like to be their age when we become parents. Kids need someone to talk to at that time about what is going on, NOT shame for it as religion tends to teach and in ways society itself does.

And it doesn't even necessarily have to be about sex strictly, it could even be about masturbation. Growing up I was never told anything about sex beyond "don't do it, this is bad, dirty, wrong", but my drive was sky high from about 10 years old on.....so I'd masturbate in secret, this went on for YEARS, and it messed with my mind terribly! I had shame and guilt for the longest time, and it was only when I understood these were natural feelings to have that all that went away. Kids need EDUCATION about what is going on, not shaming.

Also, who said that the education wouldn't come without teaching about consequences? That's part of the reason the education is needed in the first place! To teach responsibility and how to properly manage everything going on in a teenagers body, to manage their sexual desires so they DON'T have kids they aren't prepared for, so they DON'T have to be faced with abortions, so they DON'T come away with STD's, and so on and so forth.

When I speak of sex being a natural thing.......I am speaking of the DESIRE for sex, not the acting out of it as a whole. No one is saying a kid or teen should be doing it without knowing the consequences, on the contrary they SHOULD be educated about them so they can make smart choices.

Empower the kids to take control of what is going on inside them, don't try to control it completely, because as I say they still are gonna have the desire, they'll just find other ways to express it away from you. Would you rather your kid explore blindly or be able to know how to be responsible about it all? Teaching complete abstaining isn't practical, or at least in the way we teach it now. It doesn't work, and in the end you do more harm to the kid than you do protect him or her, because they learn everything totally on their own without a place to go to talk about it. Give them some kind of compass, don't leave them with nothing in effect.

You mention sex education in the schools not working.......I think this is for two reasons, number one they are not necessarily taught about the consequences of sex as I speak of here, number two......a child isn't gonna have the respect of someone in school as much as they could of a parent who took the time to talk to them. Both of these things a parent could rectify.....teach them responsibility.....and give them a place to go to that they trust. You do that and I really do think a lot of the issues you see going on would change.

I will say it again, in trying to protect our kids, I think we do more harm than good in the end, and push them away more than towards us. Sometimes being a dictator isn't what the child needs.....you may be their parent, but they need to be understood and listened to as much as you wanna be to them. For a good relationship to be established that communication line needs to be open both ways, not at just one.

It's why in fact I don't think a child should be forced into a church by a parent either, sure you can teach em morality, not to hurt others, be good to people, etc etc, but they should have the choice whether they want to be a part of your belief system or not, not have it just put on them because it's what you believe in. They are individuals as much as you are, and should be treated with at least some respect for that. Trying to push what you hold true for yourself on them will only make them resent you, I know I resent my dad's family for pushing their religion onto me....

So bottom line.......TALK to your kids, LISTEN to them as opposed to just controlling. You'll have a much better relationship to them then I think and will do more to keep them safe than if they can't tell you anything for fear of what you'll say about it.

I like the idea of this, to get with the times in effect, but am I the only one that read this and kinda cringed?

"When students approached him about hosting an integrated prom, Smith wrote, he and the county’s board of education “not only applauded their idea, but we also passed a resolution advocating that all activities involving our students be inclusive and nondiscriminatory."

Why am I sensing that policy could create some bass ackward situations just to be "nondiscriminatory"?

I've felt for a long time THIS is what kids need, EDUCATION not just being told no because of religion or whatever other reason there would be. By shaming it, all you do is push the kids away from you, because they STILL are gonna want sex, they'll just do it in secret. I was that way, even though I never acted out in real. That's to say nothing of the shame you place on them for even doing it, which again I went through till I realized it was natural and nothing to be ashamed about.

But in any case, how we view sex now hurts both the kids and the parents, because the kids are still gonna do it, they're just not gonna tell their parents about it, and that is where you get your unwanted babies, stds and abortions from. They have no one to talk to so they experience this all from their peers basically. Meantime the parents relationship to the kid suffers, and they have to constantly worry about them. No one wins in this situation, not the parent or the child, they both lose out.

I truly believe that if kids were again EDUCATED about what is going as they grow and how to handle it, as opposed to being told just not to do it/act on their feelings, you'd see better relationships to their parents because they'd feel more comfortable talking to them about things rather than sneaking about, and you'd have a lot less issues with the unexpected kids, abortions and stds I referred to above.

Parents think they are trying to help their kids with how they treat this and trying to keep them safe.....but it really hurts both parties and puts the kid in more danger than if they were able to talk openly about things with them IMO.

I see what you mean and that is interesting, but people choosing to pay for or sell sex of their own accord shouldn't be jailed or fined for doing so either way......no matter what the religious right and those of that ilk may think about it. You can't legislate personal rights based on what someone else views as wrong like that.

I can agree with that......maybe then they'd actually be kept in check.....

That's true, and I don't disagree with you, but it'd be a start just the same, better at least than how it is now incarcerating for use among other reasons.

Nope, never has, never will. I'd legalize all drugs frankly, if someone wants to kill themselves that's not our business to legislate, bad decision or not. Personal responsibility.

Basically means that she thinks we are falling so far morally....that that will kill us faster than the financial debt. I think it's BS though, morality has always been relative to me, so long as you do no harm to another being, it shouldn't matter what you personally do. It's the religious right and those that think like em that make issues of morals more than anything.

Not to mention trying to dictate onto others in the same way.....all very bad.

Totally agree. The heavy lawmaking is killing creativity and the economy, it's becoming almost not worth it to venture on your own with law after law on the books regarding what you can or can't do and how you can do it. To say nothing of the cost of doing it, look at how much you pay in self employment vs. regular employment. The system is rigged against the little guys. They act as if they WANT to kill the economy really....and make all the money for themselves and themselves only.

Yes. They could let the dollar die if they wanted to, they just haven't dropped it yet. But it's close to that I think.