AMEN! 'Adventure'.

There is NO CORRELATION WHATSOEVER between 'respect', 'integrity', 'honesty', 'sincerity', 'unconditional love', ... and 'fear'!!!

The only possibility for respect is founded in LOVE, not fear. Fear will only and always bring 'submission', ... but respect, NEVER!

The 'book', the 'dogma', or the 'people' that would lead you to believe otherwise, are either the tools of manipulators, manipulators themselves, or 'subjects' under the spell of 'manipulators' and their perverted intent.

The concept of 'god fearing human', is a man made manipulation intended for power and control of humans, by humans.
Regardless of how some may interpret the 'book', 'God' has nothing to do with man's lies, ... and fear is the ultimate human lie!!!

Now, now, now 'templter', let's be fair.

We're having the hardest time ourselves, trying to read and make sense of what 'cashu' is trying to get across.
He must certainly be faced with the same challenge; understanding his own half baked rethoric.

... In time, as you wisely suggested, I trust he will 'teach himself'!!!

You should have retired when you had a chance 'cashu'.

Now you've totally ruined it for yourself.

I have no idea how you'll ever climb back out of this one.

I mean your OP and following posts, have now officially reached the state of intellectual bankruptcy;
... no possible intelligent debate could ever be salvaged out this thread.

Better chance on the next one 'cashu'.

Well 'cashu', here's the score:

... if we are to follow the tentative logic of that OP of yours, it would appear that President Obama is personally responsible for every single person working for the US of A government.

Furthermore, always tentatively following the tendentiously twisted logic of the OP, President Obama, without a chance to defend himself by having this most outrageous charge thrown out of the people's court, gets unconditionally judged and condemned for alleged illegal actions of others in 'his alleged governement'.

Now, here's where this whole flawed piece of dubious mental construct falls apart.

Given that what is good for the goose, is good for the gander, you must apply the 'Cracker Jack' logic of the OP to the whole situation and everyone at play!!!

In that case the Sheriff would never have had to call any 'obama government'.
HE failed his job and duty to the people of the USA miserably. All he had to do was CUFF the HAMPTON CONSTRUCTION COMPANY OWNER, AND THROW HIM IN JAIL FOREVER, FOR HIS CRIME OF HIGH TREASON AGAINST HIS OWN PEOPLE, ... IN HIRING UNQUALIFIED WORKERS.

You see what I mean 'cashu', you failed in applying the very logic of your post before reaching your judgment and condemnation.

President Obama is as far as could ever be from any shade of racism.

On the other hand, I do agree that there are very strong racist overtones coming out of the OP.

For your own good 'cashu', I would strongly advise that you stay away from whomever 'helped' you in the construction of this OP.

THEY ARE DEFINITELY A BUNCH OF IRRECOVERABLE RACISTS, and cannot possibly represent a constructive and positive influence on you.

Should you keep 'rubbing elbows' with such dark subjects, not only are you going to come across as a racist because of them, which I'm sure you're not, but your ability to think and articulate your thoughts logically and coherently will be contaminated to no ends.

Trust me 'cashu', STAY AWAY FROM THOSE SO-CALLED 'FRIENDS'.

Sincere, insincere!!! Who cares??? The whole thing is insignificant, totally meaningless!

One man screwing around!!! Where the heck is the news?!?!?!

It might matter to Tiger Woods and his family, but the fact that it draws so much attention from the general public for soooooo long is simply PATHETIC.

His declaration today has eclipsed ALL OTHER NEWS FROM ALL MEDIA!!!


That makes us all pathetic.

TEMPEST IN A TEA POT!!!

Democracy and republic are not mutually exclusive, and referring to the USA as a democracy isn't yet another communist inspired 'CONSPIRACY' as 'heavenlyboy's comments seem to suggest.

Democracy clearly holds a double meaning,
... a popular-type government in general,
as well as,
... a specific form of popular government.

If one only understand democracy to be the 'specific' form of popular government, as you will find unchanged in most town halls or board meetings across the country, where the majority only rules, as 'heavenlyboy's comments seem to infer, that is falling short of a full and comprehensive understanding of the scope of democracy.

From the specific form of Democracy, which can be opposed to Republic, the two forms of government are not only dissimilar but antithetical, reflecting the sharp contrast between
(a) The Majority Unlimited, in a Democracy as a specific form of government, lacking any legal safeguard of the rights of The Individual and The Minority,
and
(b) The Majority Limited, in a Republic as a specific form of government, under a written Constitution safeguarding the rights of The Individual and The Minority.

So much for the specific definition or form of democracy, which, by the way, no modern Democracy of the Western world enforces as a specific form of government. The USA is not alone on that count.

As for the 'GENERAL' definition or form of democracy, it applies to all Democracies of the Western world, which have also adopted their own 'blend' of specific constitutional government, providing balance between individual and collective rights.

In its general form, Democracy is best described by Abraham Lincoln as a form of government that is of the people, by the people and for the people. It is a form of government, which allows people to choose the representatives amongst themselves who are given the rights to form the government. A democracy usually has a standard Constitution that confers certain rights of freedom and expression (and many other rights) to its citizens and expects certain duties from them and a uniform law to govern the entire nation.

In spite of those whom see a conspiracy in everything, it is most factual and accurate to refer to the United States, as it would be with France, as a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC.

For interesting spins on that one, we could talk of the
'DEMOCRATIC FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY,
or the very distinct
'DEMOCRATIC PARLIAMENTARY CONFEDERATION OF CANADA'

The USA is most definitely a democracy, and a Republic!!!

P.S.: I could have sworn this was the 'religion chat forum'!?!?!?! Ever 'off-topic'!!!

Sorry!!!

from what 'msharmony' wrote, I'm left with :
God fearing man!
Where fear is taken out of context it would seem, and should mean 'utmost respect'!
... but then again, we learn from msharmony that fear is actually 'healthy', as in the healthy part of respect!?!?!?
Soooo, maybe man should fear msharmony's god after all?!?!?!?
... and forget this confusing amalgamation with 'utmost respect'!!!


from what 'cowboy' wrote I'm left with :

DON'T FEAR GOD, fear the devil!
No, no, don't fear the devil either, for if you have god on your side, there is nothing you should fear!!!
Nothing except of course god's wrath itself, ... if you disobey it!!!
Soooo, in the end fear god!?!?!?!

That's the problem with fundamentalism: each 'paper pope' believes in their personal version of their god's word, and each paper pope has a different version.

Not confusing for each one of them, but 'confusing' to the utmost, and most definitely 'UNBELIEVABLE' for the rest of us, non-fundamentalists!!!

It is very difficult to engage in a fruitful exchange here 'thomas'.

You inexplicably appear to hold the US and some of its christian citizens, and Isreal and some of its Jewish citizens, as THE VICTIMS OF AN IRANIAN AGRESSOR.

You clearly stated:
« ... If trying to save Israel and the United states from nuclear holocaust by a evil dictator who wants all the Jews and Christians murdered is disgusting then I am a pig... »

This has got to be one of the greatest prestidigitator tricks I've been given to witness.
Akin to a little boy with rocks in his hands, against the most powerful military nation that is aiming all its nuclear armament and superpower might at the boy.

... and the LITTLE BOY IS THE AGGRESSOR!!!

If people in your circle of christian fundamentalist friends buy this 'delusional trick' thomas, that is part of the DANGER TO HUMANITY this thread is addressing.

Read-up on the story of David and Goliathin in your 'god' book . That's what we've got here. Only, David is a muslim boy, and Goliath is the christian 'beast'.

A quick read on current geopolitics would go a long way to help you review your profoundly misguided and erroneous stand on this situation 'thomas'.
Iran, the heart of the historically proud and dignified Persian civilization, is 'cornered' in its own middle eastern part of the planet.

At first, England, for first part of the 20th century, and then the US for the latter part until 1979 (fall of the Shah), indiscriminately exploited Iran and its people (arm's lenght) for its petroleum resources,
... and since 1979, Iran is cornered for having ejected the colonial giant, and for resisting it's Imperial 'Goliath' might.

Dogmatic religious convictions have a way of making people blind.
I am not condoning Islamic fanaticism anymore than the christian brand.
But confusing Iran as the aggressor, and the US and Israel as the poor victims, is an insult to human intelligence.

Religious fanaticism is without doubt a severe brain virus, and a danger to humanity!

That my friend, is the picture of APOCALYPSE!!!

Behind those cute little faces and picture perfect smiles, are soul thirsty soldiers ...

... « fighting evil to their last dying breath.
(and mercenaries) defending Israel and the Christians
(bashing, abusing, profiteering from and bombing everyone else) ready to die in their god's name doing its will»

... as 'thomas' so aptly put it earlier.

'Thomas', your comments in the post above brilliantly make the ultimate case proving the OP initiative in proposing :

'... RELIGION ENDANGERS HUMANITY AND ITS FUTURE...'

No one could have nailed the premise as solidly as you have 'thomas'.

The religious dogma of fundamentalist christians is amongst the most primitive, barbaric and warmongering the world over.

No need for biblical fortune telling, christians fanatics are pushing as hard as they can to CAUSE an end-of-world scenario.

They just HAVE TO!!!

... 'cause it's written in their 'god book', and they absolutely need to make everything in that book 'come true', regardless of the abominations and havoc they must cause to reach their 'god' goal!!!

Christian fundamentalists Endangering humanity and its future?

YOU BET!!!

Thanks for nailing the case 'thomas'.

You're right 'invictusV', anyone still insisting on spreading the delusion that 'global warming is a hoax',

... IS REALLY SCARY!!! ... tactically speaking of course.

YES COWBOY!!!

If you honest to goodness confuse the 'existence in faith' of your god and your satan, with the 'manifest existence' of human beings in your life, ... YOU HAVE BEEN LIED TOO BIG TIME!!!

« Crazy stuff form the bible»

« Does ‘god’ exist? »

Those questions are perfect waste of time and energy.

God (whichever one’s personal interpretation of the concept) exists ‘ON FAITH’ for those whom have faith in its existence, and doesn’t for those whom do not have faith in its existence. End of subject. End of question.

To raise the question is a waste of time. Those whom believe will not change their mind, just as those whom do not believe. Any discussion of faith or belief can only makes sense with 'like faith' and beliefs participants, or interested candidates.

Anything else is proselytizing.

To argue bible verses with people whom do not believe in god is insane. And to argue bible verses as crazy for one whom doesn't believe in any of it, is seriously suspect!!!

The whole confusion in this ‘GENERAL religion CHAT’ forum, boils down to insisting on ‘SELLING FAITH AND BELIEFS’, and countering it for its inconsistencies.

It also is a royal waste of time.

Obviously, I ask no one to take my version of it for ‘THE TRUTH’, it would be a complete contradiction with the very point I am proposing here.

I will however, share with you a personal story from my early college years.

I was interested in philosophy, ethics, and history of religions, like a whole bunch of others at the tiem, and among other courses, I had enrolled in a 'Christian Ethics' class.

The professor was an uncompromising fundamentalist guy - Southern Baptist, born-again Christian, Creationist, all that stuff - but he was pretty open-minded and tolerant, too. I didn't know much about chrisitian fundamentalism, much less about Southern Baptists or 'born-again' christians in those days, so I figured they all were a pretty good buch of open minded and tolerant people. Boy was I in for a rude awaking!!!

For those whom know me from these blogs, it will probably answer this ‘fascination’ I have for Christian fundamentalism and their fundamentalist militants.

I was then, as today a form of non-theist. The existent or non-existence of deity ‘FOR REAL’ is an absolute 'non-debatable' topic, and thus a perfect discussion waste of time.
I figured as I do now, if one believes, great! No need to talk about it. Get on with your life.

Back to my professor. Given my non religious attributes, you would think the two of us would've been at each other's throats the entire semester!

Well, nothing could have been further from the truth.

He only ever attacked something I said when it was illogical or inconsistent with MY stated beliefs. He never, ever called, or indirectly inferred that I or my beliefs were EVIL, though he would make it readily known that he disagreed with me.

At one point, during an informal after-class discussion, this topic came up,

"A Christian has no right to judge by the canon anyone who is outside the canon."

My christian fundamentalist professor had this to say (which I have still in my notebook of the time):

‘… It's basically an extension of the "judge not lest thee be judged thyself" principle, but a little refined.
It basically means one Christian can attack another for being un-Christian or for not following Christian principles, but he cannot attack a non-Christian for the same because that person is not bound by Christian principles.

Its a simple idea, but its amazing how little it is known or followed.

P.S. : if all fundamentalists and radical christians adopted the attitude and rigour of my ex ‘christian ethics’ professor, I would have no qualms with ‘christian fundamentalists’.

msharmony, you keep jumping the thinking gun!!! You tend to twist logic and rational thought, in order to fit your personal dogma and the unjustifiable positions claimed in a 2000 year old book.

Democratic principles and 'religious dogma' cannot be thrown together in the shaky analogy you are suggesting here.

Democracy is not founded on the fallacy of infallible divine truths.

Democracy is based on agreement and consensus of a majority. And it provides for any number of 'majorities', to arrive at the consensus that are theirs. Different people, different countries, different consensus, different laws.

With the additional dimension of dissent!!! Full privilege to criticize and argue for a new consensus, by the majority, to alter a law considered 'UNJUST' by the majority !!!

How does one invent a path between that, and religious dogma, which is the absolute contrary, no consensus, no freedom, and certainly no change (whether or not it is shown to be unjust) totally escapes me.


Try it out with people from other christian denomination, or better yet, with people from the muslim faith. You will probably realize how imposing ONE RELIGIOUS AND DOGMATIC LAW IS CALLED A DECLARATION OF WAR!!!

'thomas',

You're comments are no different than those of your 'uncle Pat'; full of non-sense!!!

'... I believe that what Pat said had some truth in it...'

You opened by stating: '...Old people who talk alot are going to say things that makes little or no sense...'. How can there be some truth in something that makes little or no sense.


'... I also believe God did the same thing with new Orleans. New orleans was a city full of drunken idiots,having sex with anyone who came along,and was for many years(and probably still is)full of crime and murder...'

Short of the old 'pact with Satan' thing, this is exactly the same non-sense as Pat R's comments.

'... The more these cities take God out of them the more I expect their self destruction.Cities such as... San Francisco, Tijuana, Mexico city, Seattle and Boston...'

And of course, if you're going to push non-sense, why not push it all out!!! Expecting the self destruction of some of your compatriots, just because of YOUR OWN JUDGMENT of their 'way of life', is unmistakably full fledge delusion. This represents a judgment of others with a vicious twist.

I seriously think that Pat Robertson and all his 'believe alikes', should seriously consider that they are giving christians a very bad rap.

Such a bad rap in fact, that you may be effectively convincing the rest of us, that it not so much a pact with the devil that is damning, but the 'kind of pact' you people are making with your falsely interpreted 'god'. A god whom can't possibly be the christian god we all know.

The angry and divisive mission your comments keep spreading 'thomas', going as far as wishing the destruction of YOUR OWN NEIGHBORS, is squarely worrisome. It makes no sense, and it is positively not christian!

We all have 'right of faith' 'thomas'. But this implies that yourat personal right of faith, goes as far as the equal right of faith of your neighbor dear 'thomas'.
It is clear that this simple and powerful christian principle escapes you totally!!!

Strong backer of Obama?!?!? Williams?!?!?!

This is sarcasm for sure!!!

Juan Williams is a staunch conservative, with equally staunch views and positions on the whole civil rights movement, which in and of itself, makes it hard to label him as a typical republican, and harder yet to box him in the now mainstream religious right flavored GOP agenda.

Given this odd fabric, and the fact that Williams himself has always played on this oddity by pushing his 'independent journalist' status over his conservative political bias, the far right media and religious fanatics of the republican party have jumped on this 'grey zone', and have used Williams as their 'token moderate' inside the republican family.

Now, to actually go the distance and fall for this 'FOX-Horse-of-Troy' con; that this man is a liberal, and supports Obama, would be reaching levels of naivety of a ridiculous extent.

Taking this obvious 'con' out of the equation, there is nothing more trivial and inconsequential than hearing a Republican practice some juvenile Democrat 'name-calling'; however well disguised this Republican may appear to some?!?!?!

... so I'll maintain that this thread is pure sarcasm!

YOU'RE WAITING?!?!?! WOW!!! That's a tad revealing!!! Have you trained people around you to respond so??? Or is that what you have been subjected to???

From your post above, it would appear that you finally chose to review and look-up some stuff. It's a first step in opening a genuine dialogue. Not there yet, but a first step, and that's good.

Now, you say that you came across '... major' contradictions and 'inconsistencies', and would 'love' for me to explain such ...'

Well, don't stop there: go ahead and post those findings of yours, and we all shall see whether it is material worth '... talking about it, intelligently of course...' as you put it.

As a hint to forward the dialogue, as I presume this is your sincere intent, try and sort out and think through some of those bits you call contradictions and inconsistencies before you post them.

You're right 'tanyaann'. The Middle-East (+) has to deal with its Islamic radicals, and America must start dealing with its 'chrisitian radicals'.

There comes a time though, where 'reasonable persons' as you say, need to wake-up and realize that the stupidity and gullibility of a 'lot' of people is dangerously gaining grounds, and must be denounced. Freedom of speech always, but dissent and denouncement, absolutely!!!

Dangerous!!! ... because it is so when a significant minority (if not a majority) of people of the richest and most military armed nation in mixes up faith and fact and believes ...

... in a creationist view of the world, while militantly rejecting the science of evolution.

... that women come from Adam's ribs according to a book.

... that homosexuality shouldn't exist, according to the same book.

... that some countries are 'evil' while WE are conveniently 'godly'. Don't know where they get that from, other then collective delusion.

... that Palestinians are getting in the way of the second coming of 'christ'!!!

... and that somehow, some sort of vindicative and vengeful 'god', comfortably sitting up there somewhere, would actually be busy admonishing punishment on 'a people' that apparently made a deal with the devil (and where did he come from again???).

The confusion and delusion of christian fundamentalists is a mental and intellectual virus that is starting to take way too much room in every aspects of the secular nation that the US is.
It is giving the US a bad rap on the world scene, and it is numbing younger generations of americans with intellectually challenged notions, thus weakening the most precious raw material any nation can ever claim.

Freedom of speech for all the 'village idiots', always.
But equally so, DECENT AND DENOUNCEMENT of that which is deemed unacceptable!!!

... then let democracy roll-in the gullibles!!!