The US a Christian nation? Pffft...it belongs to us all, get over yourselves already.

Our Founders were NOT Fundamentalists
by Harvey Wasserman

"God made the idiot for practice, and then He made the school board." --Mark Twain
Tomorrow's New York Times Sunday Magazine highlights yet another mob of extremists using the Texas School Board to baptize our children's textbooks.

This endless, ever-angry escalating assault on our Constitution by crusading theocrats could be obliterated with the effective incantation of two names: Benjamin Franklin, and Deganawidah.

But first, let's do some history:

1. Actual Founder-Presidents #2 through #6---John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe and John Quincy Adams---were all freethinking Deists and Unitarians; what Christian precepts they embraced were moderate, tolerant and open-minded.

2. Actual Founder-President #1, George Washington, became an Anglican as required for original military service under the British, and occasionally quoted scripture. But he vehemently opposed any church-state union. In a 1790 letter to the Jews of Truro, he wrote: The "Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistances, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens." A 1796 treaty he signed says "the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Washington rarely went to church and by some accounts refused last religious rites.

3. Washington was also the nation's leading brewer, and since most Americans drank much beer (water could be lethal in the cities) they regularly trembled before the keg, not the altar. Like Washington, Jefferson and Madison, virtually all American farmers raised hemp and its variations.

4. Jefferson produced a personal Bible from which he edited out all reference to the "miraculous" from the life of Jesus, whom he considered both an activist and a mortal.

5. Tom Paine's COMMON SENSE sparked the Revolution with nary a mention of Jesus or Christianity. His Deist Creator established the laws of Nature, endowed humans with Free Will, then left.

6. The Constitution never mentions the words "Christian" or "Jesus" or "Christ."

7. Revolutionary America was filled with Christians whose commitment to toleration and diversity was completely adverse to the violent, racist, misogynist, anti-sex theocratic Puritans whose "City on the Hill" meant a totalitarian state. Inspirational preachers like Rhode Island's Roger Williams and religious groups like the Quakers envisioned a nation built on tolerance and love for all.

8. The US was founded less on Judeo-Christian beliefs than on the Greco-Roman love for dialog and reason. There are no contemporary portraits of any Founder wearing a crucifix or church garb. But Washington was famously painted half-naked in the buff toga of the Roman Republic, which continues to inspire much of our official architecture.

9. The great guerilla fighter (and furniture maker) Ethan Allen was an aggressive atheist; his beliefs were common among the farmers, sailors and artisans who were the backbone of Revolutionary America.

10. America's most influential statesman, thinker, writer, agitator, publisher, citizen-scientist and proud liberal libertine was---and remains---Benjamin Franklin. He was at the heart of the Declaration, Constitution and Treaty of Paris ending the Revolution. The ultimate Enlightenment icon, Franklin's Deism embraced a pragmatic love of diversity. As early America's dominant publisher he, Paine and Jefferson printed the intellectual soul of the new nation.

11. Franklin deeply admired the Ho-de-no-sau-nee (Iroquois) Confederacy of what's now upstate New York. Inspired by the legendary peacemaker Deganawidah, this democratic congress of five tribes had worked "better than the British Parliament" for more than two centuries. It gave us the model for our federal structure and the images of freedom and equality that inspired both the French and American Revolutions.

It's no accident today's fundamentalist crusaders and media bloviators (Rev. Limbaugh, St. Beck) seek to purge our children's texts of all native images except as they are being forceably converted or killed.

Today's fundamentalists would have DESPISED the actual Founders. Franklin's joyous, amply reciprocated love of women would evoke their limitless rage. Jefferson's paternities with his slave mistress Sally Hemings, Paine's attacks on the priesthood, Hamilton's bastardly philandering, the grassroots scorn for organized religion---all would draw howls of righteous right-wing rage.

Which may be why theocratic fundamentalists are so desperate to sanitize and fictionalize what's real about our history.

God forbid our children should know of American Christians who embraced the Sermon on the Mount and renounced the Book of Revelations...or natives who established democracy on American soil long before they saw the first European...or actual Founders who got drunk, high and laid on their way to writing the Constitution.

Faith-based tyranny is anti-American. So are dishonest textbooks. It's time to fight them both."



http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/02/13-2

You also have to keep in mind those were just the governement of the USA. You have to keep in mind, the government isn't what makes the rules for a country, cause if the governement does or says something the people don't agree with they will loose the position in government because we live in a democracy = elected leaders. If our leaders were to have said they were christians then the none christians would be less likely to vote for this president. It's called similating. If they say they are open to all religions and aren't one particular one then they appease more people with such speaking.

And no the constitution does not mention anything of religion because religion and government was to be seperate. This was one of the things they broke away to make a new nation for.

But still our pledge of allegance stated one nation under God. Meaning a nation that follows God.

But again our government can not put practice into christianity because of keeping church and state two different things. It's the people of the nation that majority worshipped God. And in a democracy nation it's the people's choice on what kind of country we are.

It all boils down to, the governement had to talk as such to keep there place with keeping church and state seperate.

Yes, but the separation of C & S was violated during the Dippical years and people are still claiming America as a "Christian nation" dispite the reality. The notion that "under god" implied as "Christian" is in error...it's left to the individual as to what "god" is to them...not a political party's definition used to gain power with.

But I think we agree that keeping religion out of government is the only way to ensure fairness to all people of faiths or non-faiths.

Equal representations....but yet in my district here in OK is a person named Sally Kern who does not agree...therefore we still have leaders who do not get this concept.

Here is the dilemma,, the concept of separation of church and state is NOT very specific,, the ideal of which was to avoid being PERSECUTED for faith not to be forced into silence about faith.

Those who 'founded' the country were all white males,, and today our politicians in charge are largely WHITE MALES.

Yes, the country belongs to all of us,, but it is naive to believe that a country lead or founded by a majority of one group dont have that group's interests at heart(whatever the motivation).

The founders were largely christian. I believe it was their intent to keep people from feeling OBLIGATED toward any one faith(christianity) , I think what is done these days demonizing peoples faith is just the opposite of what was intended.

I dont believe anyone should be FORCED to participate in a religion, but I also dont believe that anyone should be FORCED to keep the expression of their own reigion silent.


Wherever there is a group of people who wish to share their faith with each other,, in my opinion,, it is 'un american' not to allow them.

The pledge, as written by Bellamy (an avowed socialist), did not contain "under God". It was added in the 20th century to appease the masses. You also misunderstand that the framers of the Constitution intended a Republic, not a democracy. It's sad that the "democracy" meme has made its way into cirricula and many people's understanding.

Franklin had nothing to do with the declaration. It was penned by Jefferson. I too agree that Franklin was a deist, but beware that there are quote-miners out there who will try to debunk you.

We operate as a democracy but the intention of the framers was to not allow us to become a theocracy...you know like Iran?

Our founding fathers were not even setting up laws that they expected for us to hold onto forever either. They knew we would need to change things as time went on.

They were not old sticks in the mud like those we deal with now who try to make us all live under the rules set down by a bunch of men from ages gone by which do not apply today.

Thanks, HeavenlyBoy. I didn't know about Bellamy, but you saved me from having to make the rest of those statements. Quoted for truth.

You must misunderstand democracy. We would have no congress in a democracy. The framers of the constitution thoroughly disliked democracy, as you'll find when you read the Federalist papers. (The Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers can be found here- http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/) Tragically, in practice, the US has become a democracy (this began when Senators were elected directly, which was not intended by the framers). Not all the framers were opposed to theocracy, FYI. Washington was very religious, and his Thanksgiving prayers are legendary. Ben Franklin scolded Paine on his criticism of religion (yep, politicians were hypocrites back then, too, lol)

I don't foresee theocracy coming here anytime soon. This would require a Constitutional amendment, which is damn near impossible (especially in contemporary politics).

None-the-less, ever since women and blacks were allowed to vote we've been a true democracy...not sure where you divide or misuse the term but it's our system of government and except for the current just say no party (GOP) it's been working pretty well..I now again feel represented to some extent...oh, not here in my state of religious nutbags but in the WH is person I trust.

So Mr. Historianaire, what do you think about a parliamentary form of government? You think the Dippic could have hung in there with that? Not a chance...he'd been toast.

I would strongly have to disagree


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see.

George Washington
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."

Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."


"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."
--Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.


Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."




John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."


John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is


James Madison
4th U.S. President

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."


James Monroe
5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgements for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."

John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President

"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."


Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution

I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment."

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5243


The Constitutional Convention

It's not necessary to dig through the diaries, however, to determine which faith was the Founder's guiding light. There's an easier way to settle the issue.

The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a specific group of men, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. There were other important players not in attendance, like Jefferson, whose thinking deeply influenced the shaping of our nation. These 55 Founding Fathers, though, made up the core.

The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.[1]

This is a revealing tally. It shows that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. Indeed, 70% were Calvinists (the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and the Dutch Reformed), considered by some to be the most extreme and dogmatic form of Christianity.


Benjamin Franklin

Even Franklin the deist is equivocal. He was raised in a Puritan family and later adopted then abandoned deism. Though not an orthodox Christian, it was 81-year-old Franklin's emotional call to humble prayer on June 28, 1787, that was the turning point for a hopelessly stalled Convention. James Madison recorded the event in his collection of notes and debates from the Federal Convention. Franklin's appeal contained no less than four direct references to Scripture.

And have we forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, sir, a long time and the longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings that 'except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.[2]
Three of the four cornerstones of the Constitution--Franklin, Washington, and Madison--were firmly rooted in Christianity. But what about Thomas Jefferson? His signature cannot be found at the end of the Constitution, but his voice permeates the entire document.


Thomas Jefferson

Though deeply committed to a belief in natural rights, including the self-evident truth that all men are created equal, Jefferson was individualistic when it came to religion; he sifted through the New Testament to find the facts that pleased him.

Sometimes he sounded like a staunch churchman. The Declaration of Independence contains at least four references to God. In his Second Inaugural Address he asked for prayers to Israel's God on his behalf. Other times Jefferson seemed to go out of his way to be irreverent and disrespectful of organized Christianity, especially Calvinism.

It's clear that Thomas Jefferson was no evangelical, but neither was he an Enlightenment deist. He was more Unitarian than either deist or Christian.[3]

This analysis, though, misses the point. The most important factor regarding the faith of Thomas Jefferson--or any of our Founding Fathers--isn't whether or not he had a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The debate over the religious heritage of this country is not about who is ultimately going to heaven, but rather about what the dominant convictions were that dictated the structure of this nation.

Even today there are legions of born-again Christians who have absolutely no skill at integrating their beliefs about Christ with the details of their daily life, especially their views of government. They may be "saved," but they are completely ineffectual as salt and light.

By contrast, some of the Fathers may not have been believers in the narrowest sense of the term, yet in the broader sense--the sense that influences culture--their thinking was thoroughly Christian. Unlike many evangelicals who live lives of practical atheism, these men had political ideals that were deeply informed by a robust Christian world view. They didn't always believe biblically, having a faith leading to salvation, but almost all thought biblically, resulting in a particular type of government.

Thomas Jefferson was this kind of man. In Defending the Declaration, legal historian Gary Amos observes, "Jefferson is a notable example of how a man can be influenced by biblical ideas and Christian principles even though he never confessed Jesus Christ as Lord in the evangelical sense."[4]

What Did the Founding Fathers Believe and Value?
When you study the documents of the Revolutionary period, a precise picture comes into focus. Here it is:

Virtually all those involved in the founding enterprise were God-fearing men in the Christian sense; most were Calvinistic Protestants.
The Founders were deeply influenced by a biblical view of man and government. With a sober understanding of the fallenness of man, they devised a system of limited authority and checks and balances.
The Founders understood that fear of God, moral leadership, and a righteous citizenry were necessary for their great experiment to succeed.
Therefore, they structured a political climate that was encouraging to Christianity and accommodating to religion, rather than hostile to it.
Protestant Christianity was the prevailing religious view for the first 150 years of our history.

However...


The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy.
They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation.

Quote-miners who just really, really want to believe this country was founded by Christians just like them.

I am ignorant of the formal definitions of these words. It seems that even some dictionaries are comfortable using the word 'Democracy' for any form of government in which the members of the main governing bodies are elected by majority vote.

HeavenlyBody, do you consider 'Democracy' and 'Republic' to be mutual exclusive? Will you site an authoritative reference which clearly shows that we are not a democracy? It seems to me that both words (democracy and republic) apply to our current system.


Here are some comments I found on the topic; but I don't consider the author an authority.

The most authoritative source you can get is the founders own writings on the issue-the Federalist Papers. (these can be found in your local library or online free) They make it very clear that they intended a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy. People mistakenly use 'democracy' to describe America because we have periodic popular elections. However, at the presidential level these elections only decide which party will send electors to the Electoral College and how many. Originally, Senators were supposed to be elected by members of the house, but this was unfortunately changed by the 17th amendment in 1913.

By definition, "Republic" and "Democracy" are mutually exclusive. The former being a system of governance by elected representatives, the latter being a system of governance by popular opinion. Michael Badnarik also teaches a class about the Constitution and video of this can be found on youtube last I checked.

TEMPEST IN A TEA POT!!!

Democracy and republic are not mutually exclusive, and referring to the USA as a democracy isn't yet another communist inspired 'CONSPIRACY' as 'heavenlyboy's comments seem to suggest.

Democracy clearly holds a double meaning,
... a popular-type government in general,
as well as,
... a specific form of popular government.

If one only understand democracy to be the 'specific' form of popular government, as you will find unchanged in most town halls or board meetings across the country, where the majority only rules, as 'heavenlyboy's comments seem to infer, that is falling short of a full and comprehensive understanding of the scope of democracy.

From the specific form of Democracy, which can be opposed to Republic, the two forms of government are not only dissimilar but antithetical, reflecting the sharp contrast between
(a) The Majority Unlimited, in a Democracy as a specific form of government, lacking any legal safeguard of the rights of The Individual and The Minority,
and
(b) The Majority Limited, in a Republic as a specific form of government, under a written Constitution safeguarding the rights of The Individual and The Minority.

So much for the specific definition or form of democracy, which, by the way, no modern Democracy of the Western world enforces as a specific form of government. The USA is not alone on that count.

As for the 'GENERAL' definition or form of democracy, it applies to all Democracies of the Western world, which have also adopted their own 'blend' of specific constitutional government, providing balance between individual and collective rights.

In its general form, Democracy is best described by Abraham Lincoln as a form of government that is of the people, by the people and for the people. It is a form of government, which allows people to choose the representatives amongst themselves who are given the rights to form the government. A democracy usually has a standard Constitution that confers certain rights of freedom and expression (and many other rights) to its citizens and expects certain duties from them and a uniform law to govern the entire nation.

In spite of those whom see a conspiracy in everything, it is most factual and accurate to refer to the United States, as it would be with France, as a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC.

For interesting spins on that one, we could talk of the
'DEMOCRATIC FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY,
or the very distinct
'DEMOCRATIC PARLIAMENTARY CONFEDERATION OF CANADA'

The USA is most definitely a democracy, and a Republic!!!

P.S.: I could have sworn this was the 'religion chat forum'!?!?!?! Ever 'off-topic'!!!

the founding fathers were mostly Panthiests ....christianity is basically Pantheism because it is about worshipping a god that is human

Pantheist worship Earth and the universe not some invisible entity...

I think parliamentary governments suck as much as any others and that government is totally unnecessary for society to exist.