I finished with you when you wrote:



The sound that you don't hear is the cessation of me beating my head against a brick wall.

Your coup de gras worked.

Perhaps not in the same way that Christians drew from the Greeks about hell, but evidence still exists:

"...my life draws near To Sheol. I am reckoned among those who go down to the Pit; I am a man who has no strength, like one forsaken among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom thou dost remember no more, for they are cutoff from thy hand.“ Psalms 88:3-5

"You [God] restored me to health and let me live...In your love you kept me from the pit of destruction...For...those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness." Isaiah 38:16-18. (NIV)

Sheol is:

A "land of gloom and deep shadow... where even the light is like darkness." Job 10:21-22 

"...the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward..." Ecclesiastes 9:5.

"...in the grave [Sheol] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." Ecclesiastes 9:10.

Daniel 12:2 says, "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life and some to the reproach of eternal abhorrence."

"Hell," as in the sense I used, does not necessarily mean a place of eternal burning. In fact, the Christians took the name from the Norse goddess of the dead, Hel.

Like someone else, you argue semantics. In addition, you never clarified WHOSE concept of "hell" you meant--not until now. I can't address aspects that are not clearly delineated.

In addition, the Hebrew Scriptures are contradictory. Ecclesiastes 3:21 asks, "Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?"

Yet an apocryphal Jewish book, The Wisdom of Solomon (circa 50 BCE), states, "...the souls of the just are in God's hand; no torment will touch them...they are at peace...they have a sure hope of immortality; and after a little chastisement they will receive great blessings...They will be judges and rulers over nations and peoples, and the Lord will be their King forever."

The Jewish belief in the afterlife evolved and changed over time, especially after the stay in Babylon.

I have asked three Jewish people about their concept of the afterlife: each one gave a different account of who gets to go to “Olam Ha-Ba.”



I don't believe that I spoke of Jewish beliefs but Christian beliefs that are BASED on Christian interpretation of Jewish beliefs. I wouldn't "debate" Jewish beliefs with a Christian. In the modern world, there are varying Jewish denominations--they believe different things.



My objection was that you said Gilgamesh built a box and Noah built an ark--what was your point?



Native Americans also had used the image of the swastika pre-European; some North American tribes had a trickster god named Loki--the same name as the Norse trickster god.

You make the logical fallacy of assuming that because there are worldwide flood myths, they MUST originate from the Noah flood or from the same flood.

If we are going into fantastical lengths to link these myths, I will take Jung's archetypal thesis over religion.



Marine fossils on mountain tops are the result of the tectonic movements that you mention. Ancient sea beds were shifted upwards when the plates ran into each other. This is the scientific explanation for these fossil beds--not that they were once underwater.

Tell me how I can access the "report" in Scientific American, issue and year and whether it can be accessed online since I am not going to search for a print copy. I have the feeling that you interpreted their data incorrectly.


Pangaea is a well respected theory in science, but this super continent existed in the "Paleozoic and Mesozoic eras about 250 million years ago," (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangaea). This was long before ANY humans existed to build a boat.

You also confuse what the scriptures SAY as opposed to how people interpret them--my points have largely been based on common beliefs on the scriptures, not what the actually say! I pointed out that there are two versions of the creation and the flood (your explanation for the difference in the animals is not satisfactory), yet I have met few Christians that even know the different versions exist.



Pure conjecture on your part. Um, and isn't Israel arid? And of which time period do you speak? The Jews were not always nomadic! Are you talking about nomadic tribes PRIOR to the supposed exodus from Egypt or AFTERWARD?

Really, you need to specifically state the time periods of which you speak.


As for the Dead Sea Scrolls. they were largely written on parchment, not papyrus: "They are written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, mostly on parchment, but with some written on papyrus. These manuscripts generally date between 150 BCE and 70 CE." (wikipedia) or "The Dead Sea Scrolls were most likely written by the Essenes during the period from about 200 B.C. to 68 C.E./A.D." (http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html).

If you have a reputable source dating them to 600 BCE, let me know it.




You didn't give any facts.

I have lots of opinions, which are nothing but opinions. I have lots of knowledge, which I back up with information from sources.

There is a huge body of information about which I know nothing. No one on these forums has tapped into or explained the information that I don't know.

I do know, though, that arguing with people who claim their knowledge or information is god-given is ultimately a useless endeavor.




And I have not been rude to you.

I have read some of what you post, though, and it is sillier than what the traditional Christians post. I read your profile after you nudged or winked at me or whatever you did; it clearly lets me know that you are not grounded in historical fact.

I don't have a problem with militants, but I would not engage in discussion or debate with you because you know more than everyone else about what god says; the problem with that is that you don't know as much as you think you know.

I don't use rhetoric: that is the Christians' tactics.

I find it amusing that you say I don't know you "at all," yet you make a wide sweeping generalization in telling me that I am hateful, disgusting and don't see any good in life.

Is that why you nudged me?

Karma is merely a reaction to an action--every action has consequences. Usually, when we do something perceived as negative, we get negative consequences.

I don't believe that thinking something negative brings negative results--not unless we bring about self-fulfilled prophecies or punish ourselves for those thoughts.

There is a saying about "no kindness ever goes unpunished." I have found that performing good deeds does not always bring about positive "karma"!

I disagree. I know lots of Christians who find purpose in their lives, but they are dumb as posts.

I do, however, agree that we begin to attain wisdom when we realize how little we know. Knowledge is another matter and is easy to attain if one has the brain capacity.

There are nine different types of intelligences.

http://skyview.vansd.org/lschmidt/Projects/The%20Nine%20Types%20of%20Intelligence.htm

In order to answer if one is "intelligent," that person would have to excel in one of those intelligences. However, excelling in one area does not guarantee excelling in others. I score high in several, but I suck at Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence and am mediocre in Logical-Mathematical Intelligence. Note, this lack only applies to match: I have great logic in other areas such as problem solving.

So a person can be both intelligent and stupid. I have met quite a few people who do not excel in any of the nine types of intelligences.

There are other ways to determine intelligence, including IQ tests. Many IQ tests, however, do not quantify raw intelligence, but what a person knows or has learned. When I took the NTE, I got a 98% in the language and fine arts section, but someone who is not as well read as I am wouldn't have done as well--even if he/she had the potential to do well.

When I have heard a person described as "deep," it usually referred to their ideas about esoteric matters.

I know that I am smart in my field; I have been told that I am deep and that I think too much. I don't know how to think less. I do not necessarily consider myself "deep," but I do tend to look at the universe in a slightly different perspective than others. I have been called weird, strange, eccentric, free spirited, different, subversive, dark, enlightened and enlightening . . . but I choose to be just "me."

Shining Armour, my dear, you can't argue with people who know everything because god told them what they know.

You can only have logical discussions and debates with people who are ignorant in some areas and admit that they don't know everything. Otherwise, you are beating your head against a brick wall, and the only thing that feels good about that is stopping.

If I imagining this scenario, I would simply imagine them away to the cornfield.

Simple, eh?

I also notice that you only allow for the actions of men in this scenario. I guess that women are merely the pawn of the strongest man.

What an asinine question. Surely, you can't assume that everyone shares you delusion about heaven.


We fear death because we are conscious, thinking animals. Unlike other animals, we are quite aware of our mortality. In addition, we are egocentric; we fear that instead of an afterlife, we become nonexistent, and this is unacceptable to our egos.

Some fear going to hell, but that is a unreasonable and even unnatural fear, instilled by culture and religion.

Most humans fear the unknown: it is why we hate those who are different from us. Most fear that which we cannot understand: physically, we understand how, and why, we die, but the question of what comes next is an unanswered question.

We fear death because we are biologically programmed for survival. We will go to great lengths to stay alive, killing other humans in war, as sacrifices, and in other venues. The evolution of humans is based on this premise, otherwise, we would have died out long ago.

There is an old saying that goes, "Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." One of the silliest hypocrisies I have witnessed are Christians who "beat" death, especially the elderly. I had a near 80 neighbor who had heart surgery. He told me that he made it through because so many people were praying for him. I wanted to ask him why he just didn't die and get on to heaven, but I didn't know him well and refrained.

Years ago, my ex husband had a strong, almost militant Christian friend who said many times that he was "ready to die" and just wished "god would take him home." He came to our house one day with a white face, totally shaken. He said that he had nearly driven his truck over the edge of a precipice and NEARLY died!

I asked why that bothered him--after all, he was ready to die. He had life insurance, so his kids (living with his ex wife) would have been taken care of. He looked at me, a strange light dawning in his eyes. I never heard him say again that he was ready to die.

When I was in the church, I also asked the pastor why we weren't immediately taken to heaven when we became saved. He replied that we needed to stay on earth to convert nonbelievers. I couldn't buy into that explanation! If I were a nonbeliever and the guy next to me said, "Hallelujah! I am saved!" and disappeared, it would convince me a whole lot better than rhetoric would.

We are in agreement on that. Now, convince the Bible toters.

Let's see . . . in Egyptian myth, Atum created life. In Sumeria, it was Nammu. (There are variant myths with variant god/desses, take your pick.)
Greece has several different myths, but I like the Pelasgian tale wherein Eurynome creates the universe. In Norse myth, Ymir is the first to arise from their version of the abyss.

There are dozens of gods and/or goddesses who reportedly created life. I like the oldest ones the best, so I guess I don't have a problem with the creatrix of the universe, eh?

I referred to Christians; you inferred that I included you in their league.


It doesn't matter because hell doesn't exist.

And are you talking about Sheol, the early Jewish concept of hell, or the Christian concept? Some modern Christians say that hell is separation from god--a chosen separation by those who do not believe in Jesus as the savior.

The origins of myth are shrouded in time; based on what I have read, I think that religion and god belief began in the Paleolithic and strengthened in the Neolithic. However, since the people of those time periods were preliterate, we can only examine their iconography.

The myth of ancient literate societies (the first were Egypt and Sumeria) were doubtless based upon older, oral tales. So, no, their myths were not "original."

The Jews most certainly adapted and adopted pagan myth into their books--so did the Christians. You keep talking about hell: both the Christian idea of heaven and hell are largely based on Greek myth and Platonic philosophy.

The creation myth of the Jews echoes older creation myths: a void or abyss (usually watery) from which god (or goddess) arises. God/dess creates the universe and separates the firmaments. There is often a serpent and a world tree--the Jewish myth has both. The deity invariably makes humans from clay or mud.

The theme of brothers fighting--Cain and Abel or Esau and Jacob--is also a motif in older myth.

I suggest that you read J.F. Bierlein's book titled Parallel Myths.





I forgot to address this in my other post.

Since your "wonder" is not explicit, I suppose you are insinuating the Jews wrote on parchment and the Sumerians wrote on stone. Actually, the latter wrote on clay tablet which they baked to preserve AND on parchment from about the 6th century BCE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment

The earliest--though not the most complete--copies of Gilgamesh date circa 2150-2000 BCE.

The Egyptians wrote on papyrus, reportedly circa 2600 BCE. If papyrus fragments can last that long, I see no reason why Jewish writings from that time period couldn't have lasted, as well.

But perhaps that isn't what you are wondering about. You need to be more explicit.

having choice is a beautiful thing, consequences are a thing of reality


I dont believe the heaven and hell concept are so clear cut, but I do believe that BLATANT disregard and rejection of God is probably grounds for a less than blissful eternity,,,



Rejecting which god?

Hmmm . . . guess you didn't read the Epic, did you? Gilgamesh didn't build the boat.

There have always been floods, but there is no evidence in the fossil record that a worldwide flood occurred. I did have a brilliant paper by a student that suggested the flood tales originated during the retreat of the glaciers in the last ice age.

It doesn't matter if hell is not real; it doesn't even matter if the Bible contradicts itself; it doesn't matter because Christians decide what the Bible says and what it means, eh?

A basic tenet of MOST Christian denominations is that hell is a real place.

Hell is a place filled with fire, but according to Matthew 8:12, "But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Since dead people are spirit and have no corporeal bodies, I am not sure how they will be gnashing their teeth. Hmmm . . .

Christian seek to explain this contradiction with fantastical explanations, but it only makes the existence of such a place even sillier.

Actually, in Christian parlance, every person who denies Jesus is a fool. It is not by MY interpretation of who is a fool, but the Christian god's interpretation.

Let me refer you to Psalms 14:1--"The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God . . ."

Personally, I think Christians who take the Bible literally are foolish, but in my quotes, I was using the words of god, not mine.

On the flood myth, I said:



The other guy responded:



I have studied and taught myth for years. The Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest piece of known literature. (Note: I said "literature," not writing.) It predates the Hebrew Scriptures.

In Tablet XI of the epic, Utnapishtim describes how he built a boat and the subsequent action. For your perusal: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab11.htm

Other flood myths:

http://www.suite101.com/content/prechristian-versions-of-noahs-ark-a93039

However, I am not sure that the Greek myth predates the Hebrew myth.

Also, as I mentioned, there are two flood versions in Genesis.



So Noah is to take TWO of every sort of animals into the ark, right?

But wait! That isn't right.



So which is it? Two of EVERY animal or seven pairs of clean animals and two of unclean animals?

Ack!

An "argument" does not have to be a brawl; an argument is simply one's thesis. When I give instructions to my students on writing a persuasive paper, we discuss their "arguments": i.e. what their stance will be on their topic.

The Christians in this forum are arguing. Perhaps you are not or feel that you are not, but that doesn't take away from what others are doing.




another beautiful thing is that you dont HAVE to accept him,,,,



life is a balance of choices,, for all of us


Whoa, whoa, whoa . . . not accepting the Christian god is a "beautiful thing"? So, being cast into the fiery pit of hell for not accepting Jesus is beautiful?

According to Christianity, there is NO balance of choices . . . no, wait, there is: you choose Jesus and go to heaven or say, "No, thanks" and go to hell. That IS a balance.

Methinks that you have no answer. Methinks that you are at a loss for words so you stutter and try to laugh away my points.

Methinks that when you are confronted with someone who has a grounding in Biblical study that is more in depth and stronger than your own (yet contradicts you), you would rather pretend that person doesn't exist or you would rather ridicule her.



I never said that you couldn't interpret the whole passage. You are stuttering again.





Are familiar with the term "red herring"? If not, let me explain: it is when people are engaging in a debate and one throws in an absolutely moot point to divert attention away from the topic at hand.

Your accusation of a "run-on" is a red herring.

Tell me why it is a run-on sentence, please, in detail.


By the way, your accusation of my run-on sentence is a run-on sentence.






Archaeology can only back up physical aspects, not the miraculous fairy tale portions of the Bible.

Archaeology also backs up that Troy and Knossos exist: does that mean there was a Trojan war in which the gods took sides? Does the existence of Knossos and a labyrinth mean that the Minotaur existed?

The Biblical view of god is NOT logical! And not only that, there is nothing new or original in the Bible: one only needs to study archetypal myth to know that.

You are free to express any opinion that you like, just as I am free to point out the fallacies in your thinking.

And to add to the criticism that nonbelievers don't read or know the Bible, I seriously wonder if most Christians do. In this forum alone, I see people who purport to be devout Christians arguing with nonbelievers, yet the Bible is very clear on this practice:

7 Leave the presence of a fool, Or you will not discern words of knowledge. (Prov. 14:7)

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. (Matt. 7:6)

But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; (1 Tim. 4:7)

(Note the misogyny in this verse, as if old men don't indulge in worldly fables.)

Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. . . . 16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. (2 Tim. 2:14, 16-17)

10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned. Titus 3:9-11

Yet day after day, Christians are in these forums violating ALL of the above verses.

Tsk.