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| Topic: Immediate withdrawal, phased withdrawal or 100 years? | |
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Fuel prices are due to lack of refineries in the US, something the democrats will now allow. Neither will they allow drilling in Answer, the Gulf coast, etc. I was talking to a Pakastani waiting for the bus one day, and even He KNEW what the problem is! Lack of refineries. Why are some Americans so thick skulled? Lindyy  yeah ok.. upped use has nothing to do with availability and price Yes it does, heard of 'supply and demand'? Not a happy thing to have done to us, but it has been used for decades. Lindyy
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Edited by
Dragoness
on
Tue 03/18/08 03:50 PM
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Has it occured to anyone that the major strength of terrorists is their propoganda? This is the only reason they even exists. They have excellent publicists. Kinda like the old catholic church used to during the crusades. That's how they got so many followers. Anyway, I find it sad when their propoganda goes along with those of democrats. Democrats are using the same strategy to fade out the republicans right now. And they are using the twisted stories started by the enemies. Dog eat dog. The rebublicans do the same thing, im not blind. This is the problem with our party system. Its a war for power. This is also the problem with getting information from the media. Not one single show is unbiased. Sad but true. Anyhow, just look at vietnam. We were obviously winning. The enemy was getting desparate and even considering surrender until they saw how are media was getting everyone all wound up. Anti-war movements are pretty much why we lost. The enemy back then, just like now, knows that all they have to do is hang in there a little longer and their work will be done for them. Sorry, no offense, but this is BULLSH*T!!!! Republican warmongerers, fearmongerers have been using this same crap for 5 years now and none of it is true. Garbage. My dear, it would be wise to consult both sides of the story. I am no republican, nor and i a die hard supporter of Bush. But i do know that there is a war in washington and democrats are no better than republicans. They both manipulate the media in their own light.  I do agree that there is manipulation politically on both sides. No disagreement there. Dems having anything to do with emboldening terrorists is garbage. Terrorist are opportunists and are going to look for any disagreement in our government to target. We will NEVER be disagreement free and the opportunists will try to play propaganda games no matter who is in power or who is not in power. Terrorist will be looking for ways to strike us 1000 years from now when Iraq is history. Iraq is not making one iota of difference in the "war on terror". I will again say that all terrorist are not Arabic, all terrorist do not hail from Iraq, all terrorists are not dependent on Iraq for support, all terrorists do not care about Iraq, all terrorists are not attacking us because we are in Iraq, etc....... Iraq was an illegal war in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. We are there by Babyshrubs fancy to go there. We are not strategically doing anything on the psuedo war on terror. I say psuedo because if we were really fighting terror we would be fighting it world wide, employing all nations and all peoples to defeat terrorism. This is no war on terror, it is personal vendetta, personal agenda, action perpetrated illegally by Bush. |
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I'm sorry Lindyy, I won't vote for anyone who has to 'play it by ear'. The stakes are too enormous for that, especially for our troops.  MNhiker: That is ok! At least you are making a well thought out decision. Even though I disagree. (Had to put that in there  ) Lindyy
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Yes it does, heard of 'supply and demand'? Not a happy thing to have done to us, but it has been used for decades. Lindyy i was being sarcastic, thank you for agreeing with my original point. |
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We are preventing a civil war right now. We are still capturing or killing wannabe terrroist (non Iraqi) that may have ended up in the US. 3 years tops Are we preventing a civil war, or is our very presence creating unrest, which prolongs the conflict? |
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I'm sorry Lindyy, I won't vote for anyone who has to 'play it by ear'. The stakes are too enormous for that, especially for our troops. MNhiker: That is ok! At least you are making a well thought out decision. Even though I disagree. (Had to put that in there ) Lindyy Thanks, Lindyy. I think that you are basically a good person. However, if you listen to only right-wing radio and tv without getting other opinions in the media, you will only see things on one side. I think that you should listen to both viewpoints and then decide for yourself.
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Edited by
Drivinmenutz
on
Tue 03/18/08 05:12 PM
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Has it occured to anyone that the major strength of terrorists is their propoganda? This is the only reason they even exists. They have excellent publicists. Kinda like the old catholic church used to during the crusades. That's how they got so many followers. Anyway, I find it sad when their propoganda goes along with those of democrats. Democrats are using the same strategy to fade out the republicans right now. And they are using the twisted stories started by the enemies. Dog eat dog. The rebublicans do the same thing, im not blind. This is the problem with our party system. Its a war for power. This is also the problem with getting information from the media. Not one single show is unbiased. Sad but true. Anyhow, just look at vietnam. We were obviously winning. The enemy was getting desparate and even considering surrender until they saw how are media was getting everyone all wound up. Anti-war movements are pretty much why we lost. The enemy back then, just like now, knows that all they have to do is hang in there a little longer and their work will be done for them. Sorry, no offense, but this is BULLSH*T!!!! Republican warmongerers, fearmongerers have been using this same crap for 5 years now and none of it is true. Garbage. My dear, it would be wise to consult both sides of the story. I am no republican, nor and i a die hard supporter of Bush. But i do know that there is a war in washington and democrats are no better than republicans. They both manipulate the media in their own light. I do agree that there is manipulation politically on both sides. No disagreement there. Dems having anything to do with emboldening terrorists is garbage. Terrorist are opportunists and are going to look for any disagreement in our government to target. We will NEVER be disagreement free and the opportunists will try to play propaganda games no matter who is in power or who is not in power. Terrorist will be looking for ways to strike us 1000 years from now when Iraq is history. Iraq is not making one iota of difference in the "war on terror". I will again say that all terrorist are not Arabic, all terrorist do not hail from Iraq, all terrorists are not dependent on Iraq for support, all terrorists do not care about Iraq, all terrorists are not attacking us because we are in Iraq, etc....... Iraq was an illegal war in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. We are there by Babyshrubs fancy to go there. We are not strategically doing anything on the psuedo war on terror. I say psuedo because if we were really fighting terror we would be fighting it world wide, employing all nations and all peoples to defeat terrorism. This is no war on terror, it is personal vendetta, personal agenda, action perpetrated illegally by Bush. Im not going to get into why we invaded for i don't pretend to know the real answer. I agree that there were a lot of people with their own agendas. Also to say that all terrorists are against us would be a lie. As would me telling you that they are all Arabic. However a very large number, maybe even most, are Arabic (at least the religous radicals are). To be honest a great deal of terrorist cells actually attack each other. But aside from that, if Iraq falls it will become another terrorist-run nation. It is, for the most part, in our best interests to make sure that it doesn't fall(which rules out an immediate withdrawl). It will make SOME terrorist cells more powerful then they already are. Much more so. There is a reason that a large number on insurgents are from Iran and some are from Syria (note: both are said to be terrorist run). For us, when i was there, it was almost half of the ones captured i think. Iran, in fact, has been sending their troops and supplies to aid the insurgents for years. I guess the U.S. will never master the ability to seal off boarders...  And no Drogones, i am not comparing democrats to terrorists in any way. I know i sounded harsh and i am sorry i should have chosen my words more carefully. What i am saying is that if there is some propoganda that made republicans look bad the dems would be all over it. This is why it's REALLY hard to find any credible sources. This is also why i rely mostly on my own experiences, as well as friends who are still over there. |
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I'm sorry Lindyy, I won't vote for anyone who has to 'play it by ear'. The stakes are too enormous for that, especially for our troops. MNhiker: That is ok! At least you are making a well thought out decision. Even though I disagree. (Had to put that in there ) Lindyy Thanks, Lindyy. I think that you are basically a good person. However, if you listen to only right-wing radio and tv without getting other opinions in the media, you will only see things on one side. I think that you should listen to both viewpoints and then decide for yourself. MNHiker: Geez, you just had to go and ruin it! You were being so nice then splat! NOW, listen to me (I can hear you groaning now) FOX, if you would ever listen to it, gives both sides to the point that I get so upset that I almost throw my crystal at the TV. But, trusty old remote saves my beloved crystal. I just put it on mute or flip a channel when I get frustrated with the leftie libbers. NOW, there. I do listen to a certain extent. How else would I know what I disagree with? Now be nice to me, I have a headache. Lindyy
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Has it occured to anyone that the major strength of terrorists is their propoganda? This is the only reason they even exists. They have excellent publicists. Kinda like the old catholic church used to during the crusades. That's how they got so many followers. Anyway, I find it sad when their propoganda goes along with those of democrats. Democrats are using the same strategy to fade out the republicans right now. And they are using the twisted stories started by the enemies. Dog eat dog. The rebublicans do the same thing, im not blind. This is the problem with our party system. Its a war for power. This is also the problem with getting information from the media. Not one single show is unbiased. Sad but true. Anyhow, just look at vietnam. We were obviously winning. The enemy was getting desparate and even considering surrender until they saw how are media was getting everyone all wound up. Anti-war movements are pretty much why we lost. The enemy back then, just like now, knows that all they have to do is hang in there a little longer and their work will be done for them. Sorry, no offense, but this is BULLSH*T!!!! Republican warmongerers, fearmongerers have been using this same crap for 5 years now and none of it is true. Garbage. My dear, it would be wise to consult both sides of the story. I am no republican, nor and i a die hard supporter of Bush. But i do know that there is a war in washington and democrats are no better than republicans. They both manipulate the media in their own light. I do agree that there is manipulation politically on both sides. No disagreement there. Dems having anything to do with emboldening terrorists is garbage. Terrorist are opportunists and are going to look for any disagreement in our government to target. We will NEVER be disagreement free and the opportunists will try to play propaganda games no matter who is in power or who is not in power. Terrorist will be looking for ways to strike us 1000 years from now when Iraq is history. Iraq is not making one iota of difference in the "war on terror". I will again say that all terrorist are not Arabic, all terrorist do not hail from Iraq, all terrorists are not dependent on Iraq for support, all terrorists do not care about Iraq, all terrorists are not attacking us because we are in Iraq, etc....... Iraq was an illegal war in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. We are there by Babyshrubs fancy to go there. We are not strategically doing anything on the psuedo war on terror. I say psuedo because if we were really fighting terror we would be fighting it world wide, employing all nations and all peoples to defeat terrorism. This is no war on terror, it is personal vendetta, personal agenda, action perpetrated illegally by Bush. Im not going to get into why we invaded for i don't pretend to know the real answer. I agree that there were a lot of people with their own agendas. Also to say that all terrorists are against us would be a lie. As would me telling you that they are all Arabic. However a very large number, maybe even most, are Arabic (at least the religous radicals are). To be honest a great deal of terrorist cells actually attack each other. But aside from that, if Iraq falls it will become another terrorist-run nation. It is, for the most part, in our best interests to make sure that it doesn't fall(which rules out an immediate withdrawl). It will make SOME terrorist cells more powerful then they already are. Much more so. There is a reason that a large number on insurgents are from Iran and some are from Syria (note: both are said to be terrorist run). For us, when i was there, it was almost half of the ones captured i think. Iran, in fact, has been sending their troops and supplies to aid the insurgents for years. I guess the U.S. will never master the ability to seal off boarders... And no Drogones, i am not comparing democrats to terrorists in any way. I know i sounded harsh and i am sorry i should have chosen my words more carefully. What i am saying is that if there is some propoganda that made republicans look bad the dems would be all over it. This is why it's REALLY hard to find any credible sources. This is also why i rely mostly on my own experiences, as well as friends who are still over there. Drivin I can see that you are not trying to be confrontational, I appreciate that and I thank you, I also see that you truly do believe that which you say, I also can appreciate that. I understand confiction completely. As for the political ploys used, no matter what the dems do, the political manipulation of the Bush administration to take us to Iraq in the first place cannot be topped. Nor can the misinformation provided to keep us there. At this point the information is so skewed that it is hard for anyone to get ahold of the "correct" information.  I know we were wrong to go there, will this ever be addressed probably not. Will we be apologetic to the Iraqis who have suffered and died for 9/11, probably not. Can we ever get a grip on terrorism through Iraq, probably not. I say definitely not to the last statement there but I will give the benefit of the doubt there, just for you. This is not a strategically advantageous "military conflict", one because the terrorists who attacked us were not in Iraq. You say alqaeda has been caught in Iraq, yea, but the group of alqaeda is growing because of the American wrong doing in Iraq. Are they justified, possibly, does it make them right in what they do, definitely not. Did you ever think that maybe if we pulled out the occupation and offered help instead of occupation Iraqis may feel more emboldened to take control of their country and let us be the standby? Maybe ending the war and beginning the healing can help them to see that they need to do what they need to do. We are not the world democricizers, it is not our job to over throw regimes and make them become democracies. Of which, we are not doing too well on our own democracy here with dictator Bush at the helm. I do understand that the military has to believe in what they are doing to put their lives on the line daily and I respect that. I also know that many many people have bought this picture of Arabic terrorists as the face of terror as propagandaed by the administration but it is not accurate. Terrorists are worldwide and they are all backgrounds, races, etc.... Iraq is not the stronghold of terrorists by a long shot. Okay so I will say "the end" to the book I just wrote. Thank you for reading...lol  |
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Edited by
Dragoness
on
Tue 03/18/08 07:35 PM
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Did you know? The US has deployed troops in Germany and Japan for 63 years, and Korea for 57. Might Iraq, in the end, require the same committment for freedom and democracy? Can you imagine the consequences for our nation if we had of pulled out of Germany after five years? Perserverence paid off in the long run with E and W Germany uniting on that incredible day when the Berlin wall came down without a major war. Can you imagine what a current map of the world would look like and the number of wars that the US might have fought if we had pulled out of South Korea or Japan after five years? And now we have a foothold in the Middle East - history teaches us that a society will choose freedom and democracy over anarchy but only if someone provides the inspiration and opportunities. The middle east is a breeding ground for terroism - just ignore them for a while and leave and you will see what happens! The other wars were not the same and our presence in those other countries was not the same as here, but nice try. We need to let them govern their country. If they need help in the future they can ask and we will help. The people of Iraq need to get into running Iraq. It is not our job. Plus, killing terrorist there is not shortening the supply of terrorist worldwide as some would like to have others believe. Terrorists are world wide. We have them here in our country and they are white. Terrorists come in all races and backgrounds, so if that belief makes me a traitor and worthless then your belief must make you a racist and ignorant then huh?
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White? And you are a traitor! After seeing all your post I am convinced that you are worthless. Go to Canada. how very unamerican of you |
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[
We have not had an attack here is because we are in Iraq???? Do you really believe that bullsh*t???? That shows how very uninformed our public here is if they believe that our troops being in Iraq, which did not house any terrorists that struck us in the first place, is effecting whether we have any new attacks here. The only reason we are not having new attacks here is because of what little homeland security we are doing here at airports and borders. The awareness in each city of possible attacks and preventative measures is what has stopped new attacks here. Our troops being in Iraq has only made the pool of terrorists larger. The pot is being stirred. That is all that is happening there on the "war on terror". Bush bamboozled all of you on this subject. Time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks, really!!!!!   Foreign terroist flocked to Iraq to battle America. We have killed or captured thousands and thousands. Probably tens of thousands. If alive or free many of them would find those remote terroist training camps throughout the Middle East training and ascertaining ways to strike us in the US. So you might say that we kept them pre-occupied from another successful major atrack here in the US. The terroist misconception was that they could have quicker satisfactions of there terroist agenda in Iraq. All their efforts have been to battle us in Iraq not in the US. Homeland security is a JOKE. Another well planned attack like 911 could get by our security like rain from the clouds. |
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Edited by
mnhiker
on
Tue 03/18/08 07:45 PM
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I'm sorry Lindyy, I won't vote for anyone who has to 'play it by ear'. The stakes are too enormous for that, especially for our troops. MNhiker: That is ok! At least you are making a well thought out decision. Even though I disagree. (Had to put that in there ) Lindyy Thanks, Lindyy. I think that you are basically a good person. However, if you listen to only right-wing radio and tv without getting other opinions in the media, you will only see things on one side. I think that you should listen to both viewpoints and then decide for yourself. MNHiker: Geez, you just had to go and ruin it! You were being so nice then splat! NOW, listen to me (I can hear you groaning now) FOX, if you would ever listen to it, gives both sides to the point that I get so upset that I almost throw my crystal at the TV. But, trusty old remote saves my beloved crystal. I just put it on mute or flip a channel when I get frustrated with the leftie libbers. NOW, there. I do listen to a certain extent. How else would I know what I disagree with? Now be nice to me, I have a headache. Lindyy I listen to FOX sometimes, and also conservative talk radio. I also listen to Air America (Thom Hartman and Ed Schultz are my favorite commentators), then decide for myself. Once in awhile I even listen to Rush, Hannity and Michael Savage. FOX may claim to give both sides, but it is heavily skewed to the right. |
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[ We have not had an attack here is because we are in Iraq???? Do you really believe that bullsh*t???? That shows how very uninformed our public here is if they believe that our troops being in Iraq, which did not house any terrorists that struck us in the first place, is effecting whether we have any new attacks here. The only reason we are not having new attacks here is because of what little homeland security we are doing here at airports and borders. The awareness in each city of possible attacks and preventative measures is what has stopped new attacks here. Our troops being in Iraq has only made the pool of terrorists larger. The pot is being stirred. That is all that is happening there on the "war on terror". Bush bamboozled all of you on this subject. Time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks, really!!!!! Foreign terroist flocked to Iraq to battle America. We have killed or captured thousands and thousands. Probably tens of thousands. If alive or free many of them would find those remote terroist training camps throughout the Middle East training and ascertaining ways to strike us in the US. So you might say that we kept them pre-occupied from another successful major atrack here in the US. The terroist misconception was that they could have quicker satisfactions of there terroist agenda in Iraq. All their efforts have been to battle us in Iraq not in the US. Homeland security is a JOKE. Another well planned attack like 911 could get by our security like rain from the clouds. And if you really believe all of that you have been fooled by the propaganda of this administration. It is foolish to even slightly believe that Iraq is effecting our state of few attempts here. We are not immune and we are not accomplishing anything on terrorists in Iraq. Maybe there are more of them going to Iraq to fight us or more are being created daily because of the occupation in Iraq, either way it is not stopping attacks here. We are aware of our vulnerablity now because of 9/11 so we are being more careful here at home that is the only reason there has not been an attack here. |
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Strongly disagree of course. The terroist have been pre occupied with Iraq not the US. Sure we've stopped some copycat type terroist.....
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ok...this is a debate. No need for attacks or insults.
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This is just my opinion...
Oil or not...that nut needed to be stopped. Why was it ok to invade Kosovo for a nut torturing people? The difference is one is a larger country and had the power to cause trouble. I don't really care about the reasons as long as he was stopped. Not sure how long it should take though |
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Edited by
Drivinmenutz
on
Wed 03/19/08 09:11 AM
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We are preventing a civil war right now. We are still capturing or killing wannabe terrroist (non Iraqi) that may have ended up in the US. 3 years tops Are we preventing a civil war, or is our very presence creating unrest, which prolongs the conflict? How is our presence making them kill eachother? I think if such a thing were to happen my targets would be the invaders, not fellow citizens. But i guess that's just me. (Yes, they target iraqi civilian populace and are responsible for like 3/4's of the iraqi civilian deaths.) Anyhow, you also think if they really wanted us out they would be contributing a bit more to building up their government then have the government make us leave. What is happening is we are preventing the clans from sending another dictator to take the country by force. Since a few selected clans, that happen to support terrorism, are backed by Iranian military forces, my money is on one of them taking over. Most of the civilians would ask for help, but they have no way of voicing it. Some don't want us there, partielly because they are from clans that were the elite during Saddams regime and they lost power after we took over, and a few, yes very few, want us out for legitimate reasons. I do agree with some of what you guys are saying. But to pull out and cause genocide, with the end result being another dictator in charge, this one in support of terrorism, i don't see how it would be in our best interests. |
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Edited by
Drivinmenutz
on
Wed 03/19/08 09:12 AM
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I think there have been many fooled from propoganda by both sides. Some believe that there can be no good coming from this. That we are the cause of all the current problems and should just leave. This is propoganda used against us. Remember, terrorists in general, use this as their most powerful asset. Any country would use this as a powerful asset against us. Its our biggest weakness, the legislative branch trying to tell the military how to run things. History also shows that this hindered our fight in vietnam.
Then there is the propoganda used to convince us that we have made no mistakes and that everyone that voted us to go in were just trying to rid the world of terrorists and had no other agendas on their mind. This the other propoganda used. Yes, this causes fear. Fear causes people to think irrationally. I guess my message is this. No matter what you hear, be it good or bad, chances are it's just someone trying to convince you to change your opinion in their favor. |
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I think there have been many fooled from propoganda by both sides. Some believe that there can be no good coming from this. That we are the cause of all the current problems and should just leave. This is propoganda used against us. Remember, terrorists in general, use this as their most powerful asset. Any country would use this as a powerful asset against us. Its our biggest weakness, the legislative branch trying to tell the military how to run things. History also shows that this hindered our fight in vietnam. Then there is the propoganda used to convince us that we have made no mistakes and that everyone that voted us to go in were just trying to rid the world of terrorists and had no other agendas on their mind. This the other propoganda used. Yes, this causes fear. Fear causes people to think irrationally. I guess my message is this. No matter what you hear, be it good or bad, chances are it's just someone trying to convince you to change your opinion in their favor.  Nope. Some people are telling the truth and some are telling falsehoods intentionally or out of ignorance. Who are these "terrorists" you are talking about? Sounds kinda weird
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