I'm afraid the constitution is just about null and void these days. Everything has changed.

Most empires in history only lasted about 200 years. I think ours may be at an end. Pretty old piece of paper.......lol.

The only thing we have left is the illusion of freedom. When that is gone, mmmm, it will be too late, and we have no laws to protect us, only laws to control us.

I remember that oath quite well Karma. I have taken that oath and currently hold myself to it. I'll give you that. I guess the real question at hand is what constitutes torture?

And yes the 8th amendment is against cruel and unsusual punishment. Not sure if they were applying it to POW's... or were they?

As long as we have some who understand our declaration i think we will be ok. Our freedom right now i still see as being more than an illusion. I do see that someday we will have to use our responsibility and alter or abolish the government and establishing a new one it its place.

..try that and you are labeled a terrorist....

true, unless you can get enough people to join you....(most wouldnt) Nevertheless....if the day comes and that be my fate, so be it. At least i could say i am a man of my word, and the constitution.

Anyway, how you been Jeanie?

I was not going to get involved in this one untill I saw dragoness post that being put in a 8x8 cell is torture. Im sorry but didnt those use to be the deminsions of a jail cell untill they were reconfigured to 6x9. This was only done to save space alowing for more cells in a smaller area. The US constitution does not prohibit torture of pow's becouse the constitution is only meant to protect the rights of amaricans. Its called the US constitution not the world constitution. I dont expect for those who are on the aginst torture side of this conversation to listen to me so Ill only say one more thing. You speak of morality, but what you fail to understand is that when you are talking about a war aginst an enamy who considers it an honor to kill himself taking the lives of civilians, morality is no longer a player.

So morality is no longer a player. Then the human race has fallen lower than man believes. The UN was instituted to help man maintain a sense of morality. Nurenburg was set up to punish those who had none. The Court of The Hague set up for the same reasons. So those prosecuted for a lack of morality (crimes against humanity, genocide) should never have been indicted and punished.
It's a sad state of mind when what was once touted as the difference between the Allies and the Nazi's (a sense of morality, of a higher ideal) is no longer valid.

Morality is always a player. When someone is disparate and hopeless enough to kill himself for a cause, you should stop and ask yourself why.
1. they feel hopeless
2. they are full of hate.

Then you gotta ask yourself why.

The answer to that is not very pretty. Not very pretty at all.

I'm fine! How are you? Glad to see your handsome face again!

Again with comparing to the nazi's. Your comparing thousands and thousands of people to tortureing one or two. Those are two different playing fields. There is a differece between torture and genocide. And yes the human race has fallen much lower than most people understand. And if you dont beleive that morality is not a player in war, just ask any soldier that has been in the thick of combat. jeanniebean you abviously dont understand the thinking of this enemy. They will dye for there god becouse they belive its what he wants and that they will be rewarded with virgians in heaven. Its fanatical devotion not despaire and hopelessness.

Just noticed something in this this one. You refer to the subjects of torture as POW's. If they are classed as POW's then they are protected against torture by the Geneva Conventions. You have afforded them protection that the US government hasn't.



Now on to your difference between torture and genocide.

Libya, Iraq (under Hussein), Iran (under the Shah and Ayatollahs), South Africa (during apartheid), People's Republic of China, Vietnam, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Syria.
All countries that have used or still use torture. Iran (under Shah) it was serving US interests so a necessary evil but Iran (under Ayatollahs) it's bad. Syria, let's not go there as it is still used by US as a third country base for torture. All the other countries listed (and I'm sure that there are more) the US has openly been against their use of torture and vocal about it. Never throw stones when in a glass house.

I never said that it was right for us to critisize other countrys about using torture and then turn around and do it ourself. Last time I know that made us hipocrites didnt it. But you are still trying to say that genocide and torture are the same thing. If this is what you truly believe then your views are very skewed.


Its almost 5am and im through argueing with people who cannot grasp that there is a nessecary loss of morality when it comes to war. The world is simply not black and white. It is a very blurry shade of gray. It always has and alway will be. Everyone that says there will be peace, and I mean true peace not a lul in the fighting, needs to wake up and smell the coffee. When the first caveman picked up a stick and killed another he awoke a beast that just simply cant be tamed.

I never stated that genocide and torture were the same thing. Your statement was regarding the necessary loss of morality. I simply pointed out that one cannot prosecute for a loss of morality and claim that a smaller loss is alright. There is no minor loss of morality. Each small loss builds to a bigger.

You never came right out and said it but when you try to compare the torture that we do, which is on the very low end of the scale compared to the other countrys you named, to what the nazis did your putting them on the same platform. When the nazis started there genocide it wasnt a war. Again when you say that there is no difference between a small and a large loss of morality again that is putting things into that black and white world.

Hide in justifications any way you want.... morality is just that...

and this hiding behind the skirts of a man made excuse for dominance... by using a term war, and enemy and other such crap... is just that, crap..

Harm another, with full intent to harm... you are worse than your enemy, no matter who you are.

Ridiculous parallels being drawn here.

It's crap and no matter what you colour it, it still smells the same.

Wow can I live in your perfect little world. You obviously have no concept of war, and yes I said it WAR. Ive delt with your type before only in mass numbers, in DC none the less. You belive that everyone should live together in harmony. This wold will be fighting wars with each other untill one of two things happen, we kill ourselves off, or some alien race shows up from space, then we will brobly just start fighting with them.

My kind? You wouldn't know my kind if it bit you on the arse...

And if the only way you can have a scrap of virility is to pontificate about the chest beating illogical justifications to war.... bwahahahahaha viagra doesnt hurt as much..

And no people were hurt in the making of this post...

Torture...any form whatsoever, to use pain and dominance to extract superiority in any form is..... moral-less...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist...

it's as stupid as saying..."I only killed him/her a little bit"

Derrr!

Wow you really dont have anything to backup what you say do you? And yes your kind you know idealists. But I digress im finished with this conversation becouse now that there is an idealist in the mix the only responce ill get is your hideing behind this and male posturing that. Do the world a favor do some research, no better yet talk to some soldiers that have been there about what kind of torture the enemy uses and see what you think. And if you still say that there is no difference in what we do and what they do, do everyone a favor and tell that soldier to there face becouse im sure they wont give a second thought to slaping the shi*t out of you.