Amen to that!! I totally agree. I am ashamed that my fellow Americans are such cruel brainwashed idiots. I hang my head in deep shame to hear people talk like this who are Americans.

Once women were tortured who were suspected of being witches. Tortured to death sometimes. Tortured until they confessed to crimes they did not commit. Shame. Idiots.

Yeah, Fanta, I don't think I'll be ashamed of any of my posts on this thread and until you come up with something with a bit more depth than "two wrongs don't make a right" I don't think you are in much of a position to take issue with my argument on this thread.

Get a grip? Doing it behind closed doors illegally I am sure still happens and always will. But to sanction it and make it legal and common practice is asking for trouble. Hate engenders hate. Cruelty engenders cruelty. This is your plan for world peace?

It won't work. Never has, never will.

Ahh, generally the name calling begins (as you have shown) when one runs out of substance. I never said I was for torture, never said it was a good idea, and never said that it wasn't without it's moral issues. But what I did say earlier on this thread I managed to say without calling you or anyone else an idiot or a non-American.

Misguided self promotion is no argument.
Tell me your an expert so I can laugh, because right now Im ashamed your an American!

Have you even served, cause if so Im doubly ashamed that I wore the same uniform as you!!

Sounds like you are talking out your ass to me..
Or is it the George Bush indoctrination manual??

I did serve and now I guess I'll just have to live with the deep and troubling fact that you are doubly ashamed. Gee, I hope I can go on living knowing I've disappointed you so.

:)

Rock-on Dragoness,

I don't know you and I don't know whether or not you are for or against torture. My statement is that I think people who are in favor of it and think that it is a solution are idiots. I did not direct that opinion to any specific person.

Torture only engenders hatred. It solves nothing in the long run, it only makes things worse. I don't care how you want to try to justify it.

No not one person. There are several on here pushing this NoN-American Agenda of inhumanity and spite!
Blur the lines a little more.
Soon we wont recognize the difference between you and the enemy!
This is a moral issue. If, like you suggest, we act like them. Then, who has the least morality becomes the guide. Im better than that!

This argument requires common sense and Im afraid, in this case, that would be wasted effort!

I put my hand up, palm facing you at eye height. Utter pfft....., and the phrase,"Be ashamed!!"

Besides,
If we fight about it
and I am captured

You will torture me!!!

I don't care what atrocities you name in this world. WE meaning any intelligent, civilized nation should not be performing any forms of torture in the sense of barbaric, animalistic, etc.... type of actions to another human to "bring forward" POSSIBLE helpful information. It should just not be done.

I specified forms of torture because to me, being locked in an 8 x 8 cell would be pure and utter torture. I could not even imagine it for myself but I know we do it to many many people here in the states as a form of punishment. I could not live like that. So I consider it torture. Torture could be subjective depending on the person.

With that said, we are an intelligent lot and I believe that we could find non torturous ways of gaining intel. I do not believe we should be condoning at any level this barbaric and inhumane act.

Hey everyone

OK, Fanta, you shamed me, and then you doubly shamed me and now you've shamed me yet again this time with your "talk to the hand" thing going on.

And now I'm just laughing at you because anyone that unimaginative I just can't get upset with.

Does anyone else hear crickets???

I am off to bed, good night everyone No torturing each other while I am gone now, ya hear!!!!

I already responded to the 'Ticking Bomb Scenario' put forth. The validity of it has been proven wrong.

A... The subject will hold out and the end result is that threat occurs.

B... The subject tells you anything and by the time it's verified the threat occurs.

C... The subject has no information.

D... the subject has partial information and the threat occurs.


The 'Ticking Bomb Scenario' is not valid.

Karma, hypnosis is proven to be more unreliable than torture, not to mention you need a willing subject. The truth serums are a good idea though, i guess they would give the same effects as sleep deprivation. I don't have a problem with banning most torture. But i think the forced standing, sleep deprivation and certain types of humiliation (them being naked for example) aren't exactly inhuman. Especially when the prisoner is continually mocking you. I have experienced all these. I lived. I do cringe at tying the hands of anyone on the ground and trying to put laws into effect limiting them in a life and death situation. But As dragoness pointed out, making them illegal is pretty much a safety net ensuring that it doesn't get out of hand. No one could do this on a large scale and keep it secret. Kinda like the wire tapping thing.

Anyhow, please refrain from personal attacks ladies and gentlemen.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)




I believe that the 8th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution prohibits torture


The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.



Seems like any military personnel conducting, spproving, authorizing or supervising tourture is in direct violation of the Constitution, direct violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and in violation of his sworn oath.