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| Topic: No Torture. No Exceptions. | |
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agweeed
most civilians are unfortunately ignorant and or arrogasnt and naive peopel think the world is a happy fun place, its not take for instance the very nature of war kill or be killed doesnt get any simpler than that |
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and unfortunately, some people dont understand these kinds of concepts
triage, decisions by doctors on the battlefield who lives and who dies, cuz u simply cant save everyone the loss of few to save many take for instance Iwo Jima perhaps 12000 men died to take Iwo Jima but at least 20000 airmen were saved by emergency landings on Iwo Jima during the air campaign against Japan and of course the atom bombs dropping the atom bombs on japan saved MILLIONS of lives for gods sake there was a coup a couple days after nagasaki and it nearly succeeded, in which case an invasion of japan would jhave been neccessary the japanese were taining high school girls to fight with spears, people to crawl under tanks and blow themselves up the japanese military said that faith in victory would result in victory our 3 billion $ planes were dropping 2 billion $ bombs and they believed in yamato damashii, or fighting spirit you have to understand the situation before you evaluate it many civilians dont know squat about war or the situation and then they go... "OH THOSE POOR TERRORISTS!!!"  |
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and unfortunately, some people dont understand these kinds of concepts triage, decisions by doctors on the battlefield who lives and who dies, cuz u simply cant save everyone the loss of few to save many take for instance Iwo Jima perhaps 12000 men died to take Iwo Jima but at least 20000 airmen were saved by emergency landings on Iwo Jima during the air campaign against Japan and of course the atom bombs dropping the atom bombs on japan saved MILLIONS of lives for gods sake there was a coup a couple days after nagasaki and it nearly succeeded, in which case an invasion of japan would jhave been neccessary the japanese were taining high school girls to fight with spears, people to crawl under tanks and blow themselves up the japanese military said that faith in victory would result in victory our 3 billion $ planes were dropping 2 billion $ bombs and they believed in yamato damashii, or fighting spirit you have to understand the situation before you evaluate it many civilians dont know squat about war or the situation and then they go... "OH THOSE POOR TERRORISTS!!!" No, I say, oh poor civilians and American Soldiers, personally but whatever floats your boat.
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I guess what they say about men never growing up must be true in this instance, I can remember the boys on the playground saying, "But he did it first???!!!!"
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thats reality, thats WAR
you jack up the pressure and keep it there till the enmy begs for it to stop, THATS how you get peace military personnel dont liek war, they HATE it they do their job every day day after day with death all around them and waiting to happen at any second, then ignorant civilians go and belittle them, or throwe home made bombs at recruiting stations  |
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I guess what they say about men never growing up must be true in this instance, I can remember the boys on the playground saying, "But he did it first???!!!!" you're comparing american military personnel that are overseas dying every day and coming home in pieces to kids on a playground? this is wat i mean by ignorance and arrogance, just by making that analogy you confirm it |
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I guess what they say about men never growing up must be true in this instance, I can remember the boys on the playground saying, "But he did it first???!!!!" you're comparing american military personnel that are overseas dying every day and coming home in pieces to kids on a playground? this is wat i mean by ignorance and arrogance, just by making that analogy you confirm it If they are proponents of torture than yes that immature opinion stands. Their mommy should have explained that two wrongs do not make a right, like mine did me. |
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I guess what they say about men never growing up must be true in this instance, I can remember the boys on the playground saying, "But he did it first???!!!!" you're comparing american military personnel that are overseas dying every day and coming home in pieces to kids on a playground? this is wat i mean by ignorance and arrogance, just by making that analogy you confirm it If they are proponents of torture than yes that immature opinion stands. Their mommy should have explained that two wrongs do not make a right, like mine did me. dragoness....i agree torture is wrong. In a perfect world it would not exist. The only problem is that in certain extreme situations (for one, war) there is no black and white. No good and evil. You would never win a battle by using kind words and giving gifts. When it's dog eat dog you either after be the predator or the prey. I really really do admire your sympathy for the unfortunate i really do. Unfortunately after seeing both ends of the spectrum i have come to accept more and more that there is a time and place for virtually everything. |
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I guess what they say about men never growing up must be true in this instance, I can remember the boys on the playground saying, "But he did it first???!!!!" you're comparing american military personnel that are overseas dying every day and coming home in pieces to kids on a playground? this is wat i mean by ignorance and arrogance, just by making that analogy you confirm it Well put, marky. |
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I guess what they say about men never growing up must be true in this instance, I can remember the boys on the playground saying, "But he did it first???!!!!" you're comparing american military personnel that are overseas dying every day and coming home in pieces to kids on a playground? this is wat i mean by ignorance and arrogance, just by making that analogy you confirm it If they are proponents of torture than yes that immature opinion stands. Their mommy should have explained that two wrongs do not make a right, like mine did me. dragoness....i agree torture is wrong. In a perfect world it would not exist. The only problem is that in certain extreme situations (for one, war) there is no black and white. No good and evil. You would never win a battle by using kind words and giving gifts. When it's dog eat dog you either after be the predator or the prey. I really really do admire your sympathy for the unfortunate i really do. Unfortunately after seeing both ends of the spectrum i have come to accept more and more that there is a time and place for virtually everything. I thank you for seeing my humanity  Now as for your analogy of dog eat dog, I do understand your point here better than you would imagine. And I would take alot of space here to give you my life story for you get the whole picture and I will not do that but I do understand stone cold live and let die mentality. I have been there. I had to pull myself out of that thought process and bring warmth and consideration back into my heart. We must never lose our humanity. Out of everything bad and good we are we must never let go of the our humanity. Our respect for other human lives. This must over ride, who is at fault and all prejudices, we cannot lose the human love for one another. No matter how hard it gets, no matter how cruel some are, no matter how it seems as though there is no other way then inhumane action, we MUST hold our humanity. That is my whole point. I do not mean to make people look bad or demean people. I am trying to get people to KEEP THEIR HUMANITY AT ALL COST, IT IS ALL WE HAVE THAT SEPARATES US FROM THE ANIMALS.
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Moral test: "The person you love most in this world is being held hostage. Authorities have captured a man who knows where they are being held but those doing the holding are going to execute them in 12 hours (pending agreement of some unrealistic demands that cannot be honored.) Do you use torture on the man you are holding in hopes of discovering their location?" So........ Is "torture" simply torture no matter what the circumstance or is it different when it becomes personal? And if you convince yourself that if it is acceptable to engage in when it is personal then how is it not OK for everyone to feel the same? If on the other hand you would sacrifice your loved one to a monster standing on the moral objection to torture, how would you justify that to yourself? Me, I believe that type of pacifism sets a new mark for immorality. -Drew This is called the 'Ticking Bomb Scenario'. It is a matter of opinion that in this scenario the 'subject' knows that time is on his side. He may die (and is prepared to) but the end result will still be a 'victory' for his side. It has been used before, and obviously still, to sway people to accept torture as a reliable option. |
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what would be a reliable option?
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Torture is never a reliable option, never, ever!!!
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so what is?
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Edited by
Drivinmenutz
on
Thu 03/13/08 08:08 PM
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i guess the problem here is when you draw a line for torture where is it drawn? Should we give them gifts, set them up with cable T.V.? What would be inhumane?
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Torture is never a reliable option, never, ever!!! You know, I understand and respect that you are opposed to torture. But that alone does not make you unique. I am equally opposed to torture but where we differ is that you don't offer anything by way of answer to a number of the questions asked here (including mine) when one is put in situation that makes torture very much a practical option. You started this topic and you've put forth your take on the situation, but it is unclear what alternatives you offer save for holding on to our humanity at all costs. Again, we agree, but humanity can only be held up when everyone plays be the same rules and definitions. Extremists of all stripes don't distinguish between the two of us. To believe otherwise is simply fantasy. |
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water boarding isnt torture sleep deprivation, stress positions, forced standing, sensory deprivation, nudity, extremes of heat or cold Stress positions i would agree with, the japanese did it even worse, and it causes actual harm, IF it is prolonged the rest isnt torture, its just supremely annoying and unpleasant the fact is that we are at war with people who will stop at NOTHING to destroy us even if we stop such methods, they wont, they can get even worse ever hear of Unit 731? it was a japanese army unit in manchuria that experimented on live subjects dissection, amputation, infection with diseases, cutting fetuses out of pregnant wombs, sticking explosives up girls vaginas, and more, it was all done and you guys are whining about water boarding? war is a horrible thing, but all war is immoral, and the evils of war cant always be avoided torture could mean the difference between a city at peace, or consumed by a mushroom cloud whats your pick? Torture is wrong. Justify it with tales of the horrors of war and all the things the enemy has done or is doing all you want. They are wrong and you are wrong to do it. Don't justify it. JB |
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Options.......
1 .. chemical, various truth serums etc. 2 .. hypnosis Consider also: Little (insert name) is raised to believe that his father/uncle/brother/cousin was a freedom fighter. Caught and tortured by (insert nation name). Irregardless of whether the relative died or not the idea that someone would torture said relative creates another generation of enemies. |
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Torture is never a reliable option, never, ever!!! You know, I understand and respect that you are opposed to torture. But that alone does not make you unique. I am equally opposed to torture but where we differ is that you don't offer anything by way of answer to a number of the questions asked here (including mine) when one is put in situation that makes torture very much a practical option. You started this topic and you've put forth your take on the situation, but it is unclear what alternatives you offer save for holding on to our humanity at all costs. Again, we agree, but humanity can only be held up when everyone plays be the same rules and definitions. Extremists of all stripes don't distinguish between the two of us. To believe otherwise is simply fantasy. Even if this kind of situation was the only situation where torture was used, it is still not right. The big problem is that if torture is sanctioned and becomes the norm, it will be used common place just to demoralize the enemy. It will be used for practice to desensitize the torturers themselves. It will be used more and more. This should not happen. If you try to justify this you are mistaken in thinking that torture will only be used in dire situations. It will not. It will become common practice of cruelty. JB |
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What a bunch of non-Americans!!
Two wrongs dont make a right. I know you could never understand, but torture never gives answers. Suppose the person you are torturing doesn't have anything to tell you. How would you know, and what makes you so sure he would tell you the truth! If he didn't, what then, cut off his fingers. A soldier, at least in my day, knows what they face if captured. We accepted it and still agreed to play by a higher morality. That's how it has always been. That's what makes us better than them. Listening to you idiots is another sign that America has went to hell. You people, who probably couldn't take 1/10th of what you call for, are a major part of what is wrong with America! I have no respect for you!!  Be ashamed, very ashamed!!! 
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