....and civility for that matter.

Was going to apologize for length here but dislike extra long introductions. Screw it. Will just go for broke on the reply.

No real question except for maybe aren't the first 2 in a way synonymous in modern society? Not so much about if chivalry is dead but if it matters. Is it a viable subject in this day and age?

Mostly looking to read other perspectives after long azz drivel in the opening reply. Read if you have the patience, or don't

"Defending the honor of your lady" is an archaic concept of a bygone era and in some sidways modern manner, chauvinist in and of itself. Or is it? This sub-issue has had a light shined on it during recent events. I think I saw a thread about it in the "Movies" category.

To digress (a little because it applies) to the sub-issue, the "Ike and Tina Scenario" is a NEVER and violence for any reason from any gender is WRONG! Two things to clarify for the young and others perhaps unfamiliar; "Ike and Tina Scenario" refers to male on female domestic violence, a byproduct of chauvinism. "Violence for any reason" circles back to civility, recent events, and potential chauvinism (?) in the idea of defending your lady's honor. I am all too aware she can think, speak, and defend herself probably better and clearer than I..most likely with more than that modicum of decorum, civility, and eloquence than I could ever hope for. I am sorry, call it and me what you will. If someone insults the woman I love (sounds a bit like both of the "ch" words), female family member or friend..I am going to say something as well. Hopefully not but if it were to escalate to something I am uncomfortable with, I WILL be standing in front. I also have been guilty of joking with the guys about how emotional women get when perhaps making decisions or how unreasonable and unfair it is to bring up a word said 10000 years ago with that female savant memory. I suspicion the dumb insensitve narrow-minded short-sighted stinky caveman has been brought up during girls night out as well. Can we call it a wash?

The impetus for this actually came from a "women with short hair" thread in Dating and Relationships. From my age and perspective I recalled the Dorthy Hamill signature cut when I was very young. Later in Middle and High School there was Pat Benatar and more so Joan Jett tough girl cut. There was also a high tight haircut for some reason I associate with being mean. Perhaps it was the night time soap drama Joan Collins effect. (Youngins, If you don't know'em Google'm)

It occured to me that my associations were with the: cute and unthreatening, barely post pubesent erotic fantasy of the worldly girl, and the witch. As progressive as I would like to think I am, WTF!!! WHERE in THE FRIGGIN Misogynist (something you do to your finger with a pin) Handbook did THAT come from?

I am very cognizant of how early in the still ongoing game the 80s were for breaking in to the Boardroom(s). I am aware of the double standards, the double work for fractional compensation, and the attitudes. For the same assertiveness a man was a Go to the Getter and a woman a Bee to the itch. I know all of this. Aside from that I wasn't in any Boardroom. I was just a kid or at best a not quite college grad.

In the late 90s I was making my way in to a few Boardrooms a few times. I thought women were so smart, tough, and terrific. They would look directly into the eyes of their male exec coutparts with equal footing and say things like, "Well whose Little Richard are you going to suck to get THAT done KARL?" LMAO, precious moments. My favorite bosses were female, balancing that toughness with a sensitivity that was good for business as well as morale. Though I believe it all to be authentic, in my 20s and in that era I didn't realize the unique nature and luck to work where I did. A real exceptional exception to the rule. I was not thinking about perhaps not wanting to be tough when inherently strong. How phallic based and crudethe tough talk was. How obvious it is now the disparity one still might feel in being a full member with all the privilages to a club they had no part in building or chartering.

Anyway Blah Blah Blah. Here it is 2022 and I am awakening to the fact of being 1 generation removed from the days of the often harassed "Little Lady Secretary Pool". I know I am not consciously sexist but the traditional definitions of chivalry might be. Modern women don't need rescuing but at least in some figurative way maybe on occasion would like to be. Everyone has the ability to ride the big white horse and save the day but perhaps should wear less armour.I will open a building's door for anyone if given the chance. My old fashioned hang ups are at least occasionally walking around a car to open the door for a lady and being waited for to do so despite obvious ability to open a door, and flowers. Most surprising non-traditional experience: receiving flowers from a lady...incredibly touching! Tear worthy, Smile gluing, Cool Factor simultaneously! Most homophobic thought: it would be just too weird to walk around a car to open a door for a Dude. Not sure I could do it even for a joke. We are walking contradictions. Everyone looks back on their own "olden days" missing the manners, traditions, class, and eloquent gestures of the time. They are both correct in doing so and have idealistic blinders to the evils that exist in any era.

Lastly, no matter how much of a progressive, altruistic, renaissance person you would like to view yourself to be, there is nothing more manly (or womanly) than peeling back the layers of antiquaited ideas of what being a man, woman, person, hero, good or evil is, to see what predjudices still lay within. Perhaps chivalry is that extra special effort in manners and protection of that extra special someone. Maybe chauvinism is not seeing or admitting when you are the one less capable and more in need

Human society is an entity in itself.
Just as a person learns as they get older, so the same for society.
Just as a person develops a range of behavior according to their own assessment of their experiences, so the same with the societies which are composed of those people.
Social norms are a reflection of the people which make them up.
Likewise, social norms also influence the individual.

Modern civilized populations are influenced by the media which permeates their lives.
Many people grow up with a 'television babysitter'.
The 'television babysitter syndrome' includes any media which influences mental, moral or disciplined behavior. This includes TV shows, News, Movies, Advertisements, Music, Games and videos.

No person is wholly altruistic.
No person is completely selfish.
People operate with a range of disciplines.
Consequently, so do societies.

"Chivalry and Chauvinism" are but part of a wide range of personal disciplines which overlap and pulse in strength depending upon day to day attitudes.

Chivalry is not dead, it has changed its shape.
Chauvinism is not dead, it has changed its shape.

Currently, modern people have adopted individualism.
This is a direct result of social influence thru advertising and media exposure.
"I want what I want, When I want it, How I want it and I want it all right now."
Many people operate in their own little worlds.
Many people no longer pay attention to things unless they directly impact their lives.

Sometimes I drive the long way to the store or just take a nice slow drive.
I notice many houses with blinds closed on their windows. All their windows.
"Close out the world - focus on within."

In waiting rooms, people would rather watch 'anything' on TV or stare at their phones than talk to another person.

But...Not everyone is like this.
Not everyone does this 100% of the time.
Some people are chivalrous generally, while others only in necessity and still others seldomly.

Society's goal is total unity.
Individualism breaks society.
Societies change thru trends.

It could be assessed that society needs individualism as a step towards unity.
Realization of individuals could lead to tolerism which is needed for acceptance. Acceptance completes unity.

In a unified society, men and women would be accepted as equals.
In a unified society all people would be accepted as equals.

Like a utopia, a completely unified society is impossible but as a social civilization the quest for unity is inevitable.

my very short version.....

women are not better in a a lot of area's sense

women lib started in the 60's......a lot young men

do not know how to be a man,,,,,,,the

biggest area is how we are listening to each

other.....mostly a lot of what i call social

intercourse...

Sounds like long winded, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla

Chivalry is still important, yes.
The word might have been coined in the time of knights, but isn't it simply part of being human?
Is it different from courtesy?

In any case, my long term ex hadn't heard of it. Once we were going out and it was pouring down. We went outdoors to the car, he raced to his side of it, EVEN though my side was closer.
He got inside, high and dry, then opened the door for me from the inside. He'd just let me stand there in the pouring rain, didn't even bat an eyelid. When I said something about it he wasn't fazed in the slightest, said something like it was faster this way and, blablabla.

To me it was quite a shocking event. Even I wouldn't do that. In a similar situation with a friend or kids etc. I would let the other in first.
So in that sense something women do too I guess.

But I feel it's especially important in the beginning stages of a new relationship. Part of normal courting behaviour that should come naturally.
I remember (when discussing it here) many women saying they don't need it and can open the door themselves etc.
But removing all the healthy, normal human behaviour makes things very flat and stale, it removes all the romance. And to be honest, women acting that way will rob a man of his natural instinct to provide & protect, of which chivalry is part. They're wired that way.
And some may argue the wiring is changing. I beg to differ. It's just that there is a lot of 'damaged goods' out there, allowing old hurts to block it.

As for chauvinism... not really familiar with it other than occasionally hearing it in a movie "you male chauvinist pig!"

Hi Beachfarmer,

Chivalry is a one of the valuable and elegant behavior of man as a gentleman towards the woman.

Have a nice day!

I think there is so much evil in the world, and alot of people should get right with our Lord creator if there is to be salvation for our souls.

Tom - insightful as always and so true about the overlapping, When I read I thought, "Darn! I could have just asked how they have reshaped for economy of words and time. I did want to try to narrow the subject past general manners and kindness. I know there is a consensus that the supply chain is in trouble there as well. Until age 10 I was allowed 1 TV program aside from family night (Disney, Wild Kingdom). Somehow it seeps in (How in the world do some of us even know the name Kardashian lol). Before 10 I saw in the comics the moustache twisting villan doing bad deeds and the Mounty coming to the rescue of "The Damsel in Distress". I admit even my short haired examples were straight from music, sport, and indeed directly from The Glass Teat. The double entendre of "Boob Tube" clearer still. Not much on absolutes and should preface with a "striving for..aiming for...whatever" before ever approaching the concept of altruism. Utopia, it is something to shoot for......like a target on the moon, with a pea and a drinking straw.

We love our firefighters here!! Such hard working HEROES displaying stellar behavior even after 16 hrs of sweat, soot, heat, and 100s of pounds of equipment. Shame on me for forgetting my young friend for passing all the rigorous training, classroom and physical tests to become a full fledged member of the squad. "SHE" RADIATES Chivalry!!!

cleve - Yes too bad listening has become almost elevated to heroism. I get missund...make that not understood all of the time so I apologize. I see a cyber orgy where everyone is trying to mind fornicate each other

Don - I know, right?

Crystal - I'll be researching where an when the term was coined now but yes, I associate it most with the knights. Your ex's actions were the antithesis of chivalrous and personified what a male chauvinist pig is. Thanks for allowing the nature and the nurture...there are "some" things that could use some rewiring and some that turn the light on just fine I guess.

Nicole - What a beautiful sentence and concise, eloquent definition!!

Cj - Yes I think anyone and everyone should seek out higher moral lessons from the Bible, Quran, Tanakh, Tao Te Cing, Aesops Fables, The Poems of the Ancient Persians, etc. and whatever "Good Book" they can get their hands on.

Y'all ain't jus Ho's and Tricks.

Biaaches got shiznit ta SAY!

When I say Shake that Thang
Shout "I use my BRAIN!"

Good book... I could add a lot to the list, but they'll be Pagan and about personal growth & development
And books on energy work, energy healing etc.
When it comes to relationships I think the "Men are from Mars, Women from Venus" would still be a great read.

Another would be "The Energies of Love: Using Energy Medicine to Keep Your Relationship Thriving" by Donna Eden.
HUGE eye-opener from an entirely different angle. Not just when in relationship, but also for gaining insight in self.

Personally I think people should do more investigating of self to find out what they stand for and what they need, take action and responsibility from that, and not put it all in a perceived external force (religion). But that's me.
Take my a-hole ex... let's say he was religious, would go to church to confess. Then he'd get absolved, maybe would have to say a prayer 10x first, then it'd all be good.
Really? What about the one they hurt & upset?
My idea is more: cut the crap, be accountable, learn to apologize, communicate, and embrace chivalry again.
But that's me.

Doesn't chivalry also equal that: being accountable, respectable, authentic etc. Like the knights of yesteryear knew what they stood for, how they wanted to be, what they wanted to embody, who they wanted to serve and what they would fight for, and so on.

Maybe it'd be possible to give new/more depth to chivalry again, like it used to be :)

Too many good books to be named. They certainly include the works of John Gray (Grey? I forget) and Donna Eden.

I remember as a kid consuming all I get my hands on all things Camelot.

Naturally my ideas of living to serve King and Country have grown, morphed, changed for sure. My Utopian fantasies might include a "Benevolent" King and Queen.

Living a life worthy of respect and honor (imo) should interest everyone. Living for freedom and justice....are we all doing what we can? Personally sometimes I feel I fall short and have more energy than admitted sitting on my arse with remote control in hand.

Being conditionally non-violent I certainly would never attack un unarmed foe. (unless he hurt my family..then Ima beat his arse any way I can...if he's bigger and stronger dirty tricks are on the round table). That is why I always liked the pledge that all knights should protect others who cannot protect themselves, such as widows, children, and elders.

Friendship, generosity, and courtesy have a thumbs up in my book.

I remember being very confused about Piety" and how Merlin, Excalibur, and Avalon itself fit.

I suppose being a modern era unmarried un-Knighted person, not having to save strength for battle....in all things on Earth, Mars, and Venus...

I'm sorry "Chastity" and saving other spiritual and emotional energies is very useful for Tantric Sex.

True chivalry is based entirely on Chivalric Code.
Counter to modern idiology of the subject.