And while I'm at it here's a link to his favourite song. My friend was a musician

https://youtu.be/-Idt8wqSSeE

This is Elvis Costello and Mumford and Sons
Doing, The Ghost of Tom Joad
With a bit of Woody Guthrie song in it too

You may think I've gone off thread. I do not. My apologies to anybody that thinks this.

Hey Tom, PapasFunFactory here. First off, thank you for this posting. I like reading things that make me think.

Your quote - "I as a lowly man, know if I do not want my children playing with something, I put it out of their reach. It only makes sense, right?"

For me I think most things we individually believe or choose in life are on a case by case basis. That said I feel if you take something out of ones reach you take it away from their ability to learn from what ever it is. I think we learn from hands on experience. Whether experimenting or discovering ones own body in private. Or learning about other things throughout life in public or with guidance be that guidance from a friend, college, parent, adult, instructor, instruction sheet/video or even monkey see monkey do. All things available to us through learning have unanticipated consequences that’s why it’s called learning. Some unanticipated consequences are inconclusive outcome, death or maiming, but can include accomplishment, gratification or satisfaction as well. If all things are not available to us for learning then we block parts of our learning leaving us open to misunderstandings one to another. In my book these misunderstandings are where and why we are as a society today.

Another quote you said Tom "If there is a choice to obey society or not, that choice is a personal conviction to adhere to society's rules.
Inner belief is not a choice as much as it is an imperative to 'being'."

To think there is a choice to obey society but feeling belief is not a choice cannot be. I think belief is also a choice or we would not have groups and individuals such as; Jews for Christ, Catholics and Lutherans, Atheism or myself who was raised Baptist and am now a Universal Spiritualist Christian. That goes for anything else that are our beliefs in life. I chose to change my religious beliefs away from what I was raised. Also, everything there is to me and my choices/beliefs in life are subject to change at any time for I never stop learning. When people hear my religious beliefs they say you can't be a Universal Spiritualist and a Christian, the two don't mix! For me the two do mix. As Darwinism and Christianity together also work for me. My belief that I come from a power greater than myself and years of soul searching have lead my thinking about life to be where it is at this time. I'm an open book that has no ending chapter until I expire. Even then I think my soul goes on and goes on learning. Everything in my life are choices that become my beliefs.

Again, thank you for your post Tom4Uhere. A thought engaging read Sir.

I had that same thought about putting things out of reach. IT is something I would do as a parent, but my parents would have taken the approach that I had to learn the consequences if I chose to bother it. I dont feel either is more right or wrong, but it is definitely interesting to think about how differently people approach beliefs or solutions.

It's me again Tom. PapasFunFactory here.
Another of your quotes Tom "A God that put all of existence into reality. Created the heavens and the Earth. A God that is able to create everything from nothing. This God, able to do all that, MUST be able to govern its own creation. If not, Is it really God?
As it is, reality, I have a lot of trouble with some of the ideas that make up the foundation of my belief."

I get it Tom, I went through years of frustration not sure of squat when God/Christ and religion came up against my beliefs. Did I finally reach nirvana with God/Christ and religion? Nope, not yet because I‘m ever learning. But am I stable with it all…you betcha! That said I still check myself to make sure my stability with religion God/Christ at any given time are where I need to be. To make it simple I look at God/Christ like this. So he is able to do all and could also govern his own creation. The fact that he doesn't does not put him into question with me. He IS real and here's why? The creator God/Christ could have created us to do and live life just the way he would want. But then we would be mindless robots saying yes Sir, no Sir. He gave us free will and the freedom of choice to love him and take on his beliefs. That free will allows us the choice to sit back and look things over. To decide for our selves to love or not to love him because of his actions and what we see.

Is the good book the Bible the word, the one and only word and way? NOT!!! If you think Christianity is the only way to God/Christ and religion, think again! The path I chose is one of many roads that lead to the Cosmic Universal Power of God/Christ. I added a sprinkling of a few other things I‘ve picked up along the way.

The Bible has been translated from the original Hebrew language so many times over centuries. Because there were no books back then (at least not in the way or to the amount we have today), how do we know the scribes wrote it all down word for word without adding a little of their own flair? We know that the Hebrew language and English language do not translate word for word either. Most other languages to English do not as well. But the book does have some core writings within that just make since. Like free will or do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Those two sayings for me above all make the most sense! Those sayings work even if God/Christ were to cease to exist. I still want free will and do unto others in my life. There are things in the Bible that let me know God and his core beliefs are real.
Knowing I was given the fundamental right of free will and the ability to choose is huge. Some religious beliefs countries and religions tell you who and what to believe.
I have robots, gadgets and other electronics around my house that I put batteries in so they’ll do what I program them to. Now how is that love, they don’t love me they do what they’re told. Thank freedom of religion and my country that I get to choose! And thank God/Christ for the free will to make that choice. Because God doesn‘t do everything for me is why I love him. I get to see the fruits of my labor for working with him and the understanding of why I do so.

Tom, wouldn’t you rather see the whole of your subjects all around you because of your actions, your acts of love for them and all they‘ll give in return? Or would you rather see the mindless robots you’ve created that have no soul follow you because they’re told to. They don’t love you, they’re told to. They don’t worship you because you‘re one cool dude, they’re told to. Even if you were to pick a partner. She wont love you because you’re better than the other choices, she’s there because she has no soul and she’s told to. How boring is that. She wont do anything because she made her choice for you or appreciates you, she has no soul she was told to. She listens but doesn’t hear you. Even if she wont talk back, that’s not a choice I’d want. I can go buy a sex doll if that’s all I want from life.

It’s OK to question anything and everything about God/Christ and the beliefs therein. That’s how we learn and understand. Through our learning we can discern who is and is not a false profit, false preacher, false pastor or any cracks within God‘s/Christ‘s core teachings.

“Where do you draw the line?
At what point do YOU try to interpret the mind of God?
What gives you the authority?”

Where do you draw the line?
Where ever you feel the line stops at and works best for you, everybody has a different idea of what that is. With open communications we’ll all know where each others is and respect it.

At what point do YOU try to interpret the mind of God?
No one can interpret the mind of God. But to the best of our ability we can and should try to understand the word that was given and written. We should sift through what words are his, what words are mans and what makes sense to our minds of what we read.

What gives you the authority?
We all have that authority! He gave it to each and every one of us through free will and freedom of choice, his love.

I hope this helps buddy.
Again I thank you Tom4Uhere for a captivating read.

For me, even when God makes it rain the Son is always shining.

God bless you my friend, God bless.

This is the garden, you can enjoy everything except the fruits of this tree.
You have free will but never partake of the fruits of this tree.

In context:
These are all your buttons, you can push any button you want but never push this one. The big red one that is glowing.
What you don't tell them is that big glowing red button is connected to a ton of C4 under the house.
No parent is going to put such a button in reach of their children.
Why even have such a button if it is not meant to be pushed?

Why put the tree of knowledge in the garden if it is not meant to be partaken from? Especially when every other tree in the garden is freely available to partake from.

Furthermore, how is it "free will" means your are "forbidden" from partaking in the fruit of the tree of knowledge?
Its a contradiction.

It is a choice to obey society.
The context of an "imperative to being" is that when someone truly believes something, the choice to believe is not there.

When we are convinced of a delusion it means we think the delusion is truth.
If we believe something entirely, we can't help but believe it.
It only becomes a choice once we are enlightened to the delusion.

If the kid believes there is a monster under the bed when its dark, to them, there will be a monster under the bed when its dark until they realize there isn't.

In dating context:
If you believe he or she loves you with all their heart and you believe this with all your heart, you will continue to believe this despite what reality is unless you remove the delusion. You have no choice to believe it because you believe it is true, its not a choice, its a belief. It only becomes a choice after your belief as waned.

I remember the summer afternoon in the local theater in 1969 when I stepped up on stage, held hands will Billy Graham and asked for forgiveness.
I was completely and utterly convinced of the religion.
I stayed convinced for decades. I ignored the inconsistencies in the religion I 'believed' in with all my heart.
Then I died in a car accident and was 'saved' by the paramedics.
I started looking at my life and much did not make sense.
I started asking more and more pointed questions that my beloved religion could not answer. I started removing delusions, got seriously depressed with being alive, contemplating suicide.
I chose life and decided to seek real help.
My life changed, my rationality changed, I started removing all delusions, started looking for truth in reality. I found it.
I still believe in a God.
I no longer believe in religion.
It wasn't my belief in God that failed, it was my belief in "man" that failed.

My parents had a house. It was MY HOME. there were many beautiful things there that THEY enjoyed and which embellished the home and their life, that I was not to touch. It is all in perception. WE have free will, because we are not robots. We make a conscious choice. That does not mean we are free to have no consequence to our choice or free from wrong choices or choices to obey/disobey or do right and wrong.

For me, the tree signified the fact that there is choice. For me anyway, to give choice but then not really be making any choice to obey, because there is nothing there that one is forbidden, would not be much of free will, but more a manipulated existence that APPEARED to have choice, but did not teach anything of consequence.

Yes, you are free to obey me and do what I say.
You are free not to obey me too but I will punish you.
As long as you do not gain knowledge or reasoning ability and remain stagnant, you are free to do as your feeble mind is instructed.
Oh, wait, isn't that what a robot is?

But, as soon as you start to think and reason and my laws are questioned, I will punish you, throw you out of the house, never to return again.
La La La same ole argument.

I'm not talking about a house or a home, I'm talking about existence.
God created Adam and then Eve.
Why didn't He create both at the same time?
Why wouldn't He know Adam would be lonely from the get go?
What else doesn't God know about His own creations?
He put that tree there because he wanted mankind to have knowldge and reason.
If He didn't, that means He is not all powerful and all knowing and if that is the case, all aspects of the religion are suspect.

I disagree. I would say a robot ONLY does what a controller causes them to do. There is no consciousness to do otherwise.

There are many things in life that serve more than one purpose. Soap powder is for washing dishes, but it is poisonous if you eat it. The tree was another beautiful thing to see in the garden, BUT it also opened the eyes to shame and guilt. There was no surprise. Both children had been forewarned the consequence AND CHOSE to take the risk. That is the choice of life for us all every day. We know the consequences, and some of us take the risks anyway.

I don't allow my mind to get caught in the circular line of 'what ifs' and 'why nots' when it comes to God. I try not to box him into the limitations and timelines of that which He created.


Just like my parents, I trust his knowledge is beyond mine or beyond what I could understand WITHOUT that similar experience. I don't know that tree was there because He meant for them to disobey. Being all powerful, there is no limit on how He could give mankind whatever traits He chose.

Igor touched on this topic once and hit the nail on the head, for me. It is, for me, like ants being able to 'understand' humans or the coffin being able to 'understand' the coffin maker. I dont profess to understand all about God. But I do not need to. I dont expect to because those who create usually are not confined by the same boundary or limits they give the things they create.

The closest understanding I have or need is the parental example. I trust He loves us. I trust he has the knowledge to want for us and guide us in the best direction for Joy and health. I trust that He is truthful in his explanations of choice and consequence and that He lets us go, once we are no longer a child, to make those choices for ourselves, being armed with his guidance regarding consequence of choice.

So, everything is fine and dandy until you have questions.
I live on a world with other people that are curious.
Curiosity is natural.

Lack of curiosity (the relentless hunt for enlightenment) never ends.
If it does, we stagnate.

Whats so special about this tree I am not supposed to touch?
Do it gets touched.

You program a robot to go step over the edge of a cliff and it will step over the edge of the cliff.
A robot does not have the capacity for independent curiosity or rationality.
It follows direction.

Religion expects a person to follow its direction, not to question.
Problem is, people question. We are a curious bunch.
When we question and the answers we are told do not make sense with what we experience, we keep questioning until it does make sense to what we experience.

In a perfect religion, there are no questions and all believe what they are told, completely. The tree would not exist to them.

That scenario is only defective if you don't understand it, which you obviously don't, lol.

I am cool with a religion like that. The tree helps us understand that this world is not all there is and how the morals of our whorship are the right way. I look forward to worshiping together in heaven,

God exists but not as most believe.
The way I see God is it exists within the moment between the changes of state of the Universe.
It exists between time itself.
All duration has a beginning and an end.
God exists during the duration between that duration and it permeates existence.
I'm talking far deeper than intelligent design because even within a moment intelligent design dictates that duration has occurred.
God exists within the static states between moments of time.
All moments of time. Everywhere and everywhen.

Try to keep up...
A boson has a spin.
That spin is a result of changes of static states.
If you imagine that spin from them moment is in one static state, to the moment it is in its next static state, that is duration.
That duration also has a duration from point A to point B.
Between those points is also a duration.
God exists at the static state of the Universe and exists within that static state which in itself is a duration.
That existence is also a change of state on a deeper level of time.
God exists at the point where time has no duration.
That point is fundamental no matter the period being assessed.

However, even within that static state, there is duration.
Duration of existence.
Its that moment between duration that dictates there is something more than what is shown.
To exist within that moment, everywhere and everywhen is beyond the capacity of reason so God exists beyond the capacity of reason.

While it is perplexing for me to contemplate, it gives me peace to fathom that God is far beyond my capacity to understand.
I can accept that.

If religion, your religion gives you peace, what more might you want?
The God I believe actually exists, to me, actually exists.
What more could I want?

there is nothing wrong with questions. However, there is also a necessity for trust. And a time for each. To the parental example, my parents allowed questions about certain things and to a certain extent. Yet, other things were explained once and then there were no more questions about it, because child's mind can come up with a million questions, and the more the child's mind gets used to making a debate of things, the less they develop the sense of TRUSTING in the parents judgment and word. My mom knew a man who had a child burn in a fire, why? Because she was asking tons of questions out of fear of jumping when he told her to jump out of second floor window into his arms. Sometimes, parents know about urgency that their kids may not, and it is important that kids see a trend of consistency and honesty, to eventually develop the kind of trust that leads to LESS questioning of parents instructions.


There was no question in the Garden. The instruction was given ALONG with t he reason for the instruction. The choice was made.

Now wait a minute.
That doesn't make sense?

The fruit of the tree was knowledge, right?
With knowledge comes reason (for the most part).
Adam & Eve were alone in the garden.
You're saying God instructed them and gave them a reason not to partake from the tree and they defied Him?

Before they consumed the fruit of knowledge, they possessed no knowledge and therefore possessed no ability to reason.
The knowledge wasn't available to them UNTIL they ate the fruit.

You place a bowl of acid on the floor in the one year old's playroom and tell them not to play with it, then you walk away. What do you think is gunna happen?
The point is, as an adult, you would NOT put a bowl of acid where a one year old might get ahold of it. You would not put a tree of knowledge in a garden if you don't want your creation to possess knowledge. That's just bad parenting.

no. I think that is a common mistake, like assuming the fruit was an apple. It is not in the Bible. There was no tree of 'knowledge' but SPECIFICALLY fruit of knowledge of 'good and evil'.

But, as mentioned before, the circle of 'how come' can be endless. The understanding of Adam and Eve is not something anyone can know for sure, they were spiritually children, but that doesn't mean they were intellectually ONLY on par with a one year old.

God's creation needed knowledge to communicate and have dominion of animals and plants. There is a broad range of what 'knowledge' can encompass. nothing to suggest they had no knowledge of ANYTHING is in the Bible.

Okay, I can understand that God gave his creation a certain amount of knowledge. Enough to function.
What I don't get is the defiance.
Defiance is learned.

Lets say the 'serpent' taught Eve defiance. Then Eve taught Adam defiance.
In God's created garden are the things God created, right?
God wants the best for His creation so He creates an place of Eden. He gives this domain to His creation.
How did the 'serpent' get into the garden in order to teach Eve defiance?
Did it sneak in?
How did it sneak in if God is all powerful and all-knowing?
This indicates that God allowed that serpent into the garden.
God, knowing the nature of the serpent (because He created the serpent also), allowed the serpent to teach Eve defiance.

Have you ever built a model or a diorama?
When you create it, you are meticulous to remove anything 'foreign from it.
You trim away the plastic flashing, you use tweezers to pluck that wayward piece of yarn. You are very aware of the things that are in your creation.

The only explanation is the serpent was put there for a reason. Perhaps to test Adam and Eve.
But that goes against the idea that God is perfect.
If God is perfect, he would not need to test his creation.
There would be no need for the tree or the serpent because His creation, being made in His own image, would also be perfect.

But, lets back up the clock a bit.
God created angels and that creation had failures that he had to cast out.
This is an indication that God is not perfect or all-knowing.
That He makes mistakes and needs to test his work because He is unsure of Himself.

Now fast forward a bit.
He also has little patience and is prone to temper tantrums.
My creation is not doing what I want.
Fine, no garden for you.
Fine, here, deal with this flood.
Then He has a second thought and decides to come down and make laws.
Rules for His creation.
Don't kill but do sacrifice a lamb to Me by killing it?
Then He realizes that isn't working so he puts a piece of himself in one of His creations and gives His creation ONE LAST CHANCE to straighten up or He will burn it all down in one final planned tantrum.

Sorry, that is not my idea of an all-knowing, loving supreme being.
But, it does describe men pretty well.
The men who invented religion.

Tom amen brother

The problem I have with this story is that the children appear to have been forbidden to acquire the knowledge of good and evil. Does that mean they are supposed to remain ignorant of the difference between good and evil? Is this what would have happened if they had obeyed that instruction? What would be the point of not educating children to understand those things you should not do and those things you can do?

It seems it was actually a good thing to acquire that knowledge, for their future information, yet it was forbidden!

Please forgive my ignorance, I speak as one who was brought up a Catholic and having rejected any form of 'God' I am now a humanist. Maybe I need clear and simple explanations for everything, something which doesn't exist in religions. There are many different religions, and many different denominations within the Christian religion. All of them shout, "We're the true religion, the rest of you are worshipping false Gods, which is forbidden in the Book". No wonder simple folk like me are confused!

I dont know that they were physically 'children' in the sense of modern context. I dont know what it meant other than that they weren't to eat from that tree.Perhaps they could have lived forever in a Paradise, not knowing any evil (they already had the good). I dont know if that would be a bad existence or not. But I know they were informed and took their risks and they learned about negative consequence from it.

If we have everything we want and need, why would we need to know 'evil' at all?

Is their some significance in knowing evil just for the sake of knowing it?

Could free will exist where humans made only the good choices?

Like I said, the whys and why nots are endless and circular, which is why it comes down to Trust in the knowledge of a higher power.

As to true 'religion', it is like race, a social construct that categorizes people by some arbitrary standard of modern times.

Also, I dont believe that the bible says to not worship any other God. I find it as interesting as the interpretation that we are not to judge. In fact, it is not anything that simplistic in the Bible. Regarding Gods, it says to not worship any gods(plural) before The Lord God, as opposed to saying have no Gods.

People do that with the judgment verses too, in which it is said not to judge LEST ye be judged, and goes on in context to JUDGE the action as a sin, but to leave the judgment of punishment for sin out of the hands of sinners who dont want others choosing their punishment either.

I find that life is simpler having rejected the possibility of any 'higher power'. The thought of some very superior being judging my actions is quite scary since I don't know the criteria to be applied. Basic right and wrong is easy enough for anyone to understand and is the basis of a humanist view of life - do unto others as you would be done by is as good a starting point as any. In fact, most of the Christian instruction about not hurting others, not stealing, etc applies equally to humanists.

It could be said that humanism is Christianity without the need for a God. That would be quite close. And it is a much easier lifestyle to follow!