And I do respect....But were talking tradition here......And it goes both ways that respect. I get riled and taunted for being a Christian more then any other religious group around. I don't mind it because as I have told many people I have a relationship not a religion...But respect for sure goes both ways....

P.S. Dave I have missed you Mr.

Actually the guys that do this song, will be my guests at chapel next Friday (which I produce and direct)

AND we are playing the vid that I introduced in my OP.

Dave, I appreciate you clarifying it wasn't directed at me. That was considerate.

Deb, of course you know I took four years of theology to be prepared for all this debating, but honestly I feel it just wastes good time people could be loving of one another.

Dave & Dragon, one more thing. I agree it's all about tolerance. Problem is no one tolerates the Christian viewpoint anymore. THAT's the issue here. Not their rights.

"A Merry Christmas to all ........ And to all a good night!"

love the link!!!

Merry Christmas!

Exactly. It's funny how no-one seems to know any history...

I say "Happy Holidays" because 1.) I want to distance myself as far as possible from Christianity 2.) There are many folks, like me, who are atheists or of a non-Christian religion who celebrate the holiday and I don't want to be presumptuous.

The old meaning of CHRISTMAS:
Just a week before Christmas I had a visitor. This is how it happened. I just finished the household chores for the night and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a noise in the front of the house. I opened the door to the front room, and to my surprise, Santa himself stepped out from behind the Christmas tree. He placed his finger over his mouth so I would not cry out. "What are you doing?" I started to ask him.

The words choked in my throat, as I saw he had tears in his eyes. His usual jolly manner was gone. Gone was the eager boisterous soul we all know. He then answered me with a simple statement, TEACH THE CHILDREN! I was puzzled: What did he mean? He anticipated my question, and with one quick movement brought forth a miniature toy bag from behind the tree.

As I stood there bewildered, Santa said, Teach the Children! Teach them the old meaning of Christmas. The meaning that a now-a-day Christmas has forgotten!

Santa then reached in his bag and pulled out a FIR TREE and placed it on the mantle. Teach the Children that the pure green color of the stately fir tree remains green all year round, depicting the everlasting hope of mankind. All the needles point heavenward, making it a symbol of man's thoughts turning
toward heaven.

He again reached into his bag and pulled out a brilliant STAR. Teach the Children that the star was the heavenly sign of promises long ago. God promised a Savior for the world, and the star was the sign of fulfillment of that promise.

He then reached into the bag and pulled out a CANDLE. Teach the Children that the candle symbolizes that Christ is the light of the world, and when we see this great light we are reminded of He who displaces the darkness.

Once again he reached into his bag and then removed a WREATH and placed it on the tree. Teach the Children that the wreath symbolizes the eternal nature of love. Real love never ceases. Love is one continuous round of affection.

He then pulled out from his bag an ornament of HIMSELF. Teach the Children that Santa Claus symbolizes the generosity and good will we feel during the month of December.

He reached in again and pulled out a HOLLY LEAF. Teach the Children the holly plant represents immortality. It represents the crown of thorns worn by our Savior. The red holly berries represent blood shed by Him.

Next he pulled out a GIFT from the bag and said, "Teach the Children that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift. Teach the Children that the wise men bowed before the holy babe and presented Him with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. We should give gifts in the same spirit as the wise men."

Santa then reached in his bag and pulled out a CANDY CANE and hung it on the tree. Teach the Children that the candy cane represents the shepherd's crook. The crook on the shepherd's staff helps bring back strayed sheep from the flock. The candy cane is the symbol that we are our brother's keeper.

He reached in again and pulled out an ANGEL. Teach the Children that it was the angels that heralded in the glorious news of the Savior's birth. The angels sang 'Glory to God in the highest, on earth, peace and good will.'

Suddenly I heard a soft twinkling sound, and from his bag he pulled out a BELL. Teach the Children that as the lost sheep are found by the sound of a bell, it should bring people to the fold. The bell symbolizes guidance and return.

Santa looked at the tree and was pleased. He looked back at me and I saw the twinkle was back in his eyes. He said, "Remember, teach the Children the true meaning of Christmas, and not to put me in the center, for I am but a humble servant of the One who is, and I bow down and worship Him, our Lord, our God."

HO HO HO MERRY CHRISTMAS

ok bawling now.......thank you....thank you

Again jist, you say what I try to say and fail sometimes. I have been trying to say the same thing. The forefathers knew what happens to a country if religion is given too much power and they wrote it so that freedom of personal religion is allowed but the monopoly on a certain religion having control would not happen. Even saying this and trying to do this, the monopolizing religion in this country is still allowed too much power in our government. This is the screams you hear. People want a stifle on the amount of control this religion has in our goverment. If they go to far to make the point, that will be, until a reasonable compromise is met. No one wants to take anyone elses religion away from them but they want said religion to respect others not of the same faith. Other people do not believe in your god and you must respect them. God has no place in government institutions, that way no one god is favored. This includes public schools and government offices. Our government must be free of any religious affiliation in order for it to be fair to all. It is not so now and until it is, yes, there will be changes. Someone along the way did not understand the separation of church and state but it will be corrected for the freedom of us all.

Removing religion from the schools has nothing to do with the increase in societal ills, it is more of an economic and familial problem. If one parent could stay home with the kids there would be less latchkey kids running around and getting lost with the other lost kids. Second if the families had moved forward with the technology that our kids were exposed to at such a fast rate, meaning more control over television, internet, etc..... there would have been less problems from the rush of information they received. Parents have been too busy working to live to raise their children, hell the schools and other kids raise our kids now. Sad but true.

didnt mean to make you cry...just wanted to share this with everyone it was sent to me and this thread was perfect for it

Christmas' pagan origins from essortment.com:

Few people realize that the origins of a form of Christmas was pagan & celebrated in Europe long before anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ.

No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ’s birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?

The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.

In Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia, honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers and dancers who traveled from house to house entertaining their neighbors. From this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.

In northern Europe, many other traditions that we now consider part of Christian worship were begun long before the participants had ever heard of Christ. The pagans of northern Europe celebrated the their own winter solstice, known as Yule. Yule was symbolic of the pagan Sun God, Mithras, being born, and was observed on the shortest day of the year. As the Sun God grew and matured, the days became longer and warmer. It was customary to light a candle to encourage Mithras, and the sun, to reappear next year.

Huge Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods.

The tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again. Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and worshipping huge trees.

In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.

Christmas (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany, though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany. A prominent Lutheran minister of the day cried blasphemy: “Better that they should look to the true tree of life, Christ.”

I agree with what you said Gustava but again people the point is being missed. We as Christians know all about the history of Christmas and as I am German even more so. What the problem is is people thinking they have a right to mess with our traditions. Now again we also are very aware that Christ was not born on the 25th. But this is tradition for us to celebrate his birth on December 25th and the whole month for that matter. We don't tell anyone else when they celebrate their holidays and the same should apply to us. Thats it.....end of story......

AND MERRY CHRISTMAS

And I also like the one called Tossmas.....In which I get any magazines that call it Holiday and I tossmas it into the trash.

This crap comes out every HOLIDAY for the last few years. It is part of the "Lets get people pissed off at something so we can gather them to our agenda." It's no different then the HAPPY HOLIDAYS crowd. First off. I remember as a kid we had decorations that said HAPPY HOLIDAYS on them and no one was freakin out and thinking it was a communist plot to over throw our way of life. There are songs from the thirties and forties with the phrase Happy Holidays in them. Why now has it become such a hot point? This Stewart pinhead guy and others like him love to stir the pot, why? cause it makes for great ratings, and ratings = $$$.Why do you think Fox news has led the charge on this for the last few years? Do you really believe they are doing it for the good of the nation? As with the Stores everybody is whining about, it all comes down to money. All this crap is because some RETAIL OUTLETs want their employees to say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas so as to cover a broader spectrum of customers. Do they sell things in the store that say Merry Christmas? Have they banned anything that has a picture of Santa or Jesus on it? Why? Commerse. Thats what its all about. Even religion is about selling. Selling you on the churches belief so you come to their house and fill the pass around plate with $$$.
Is this what the meaning of Christmas has come too in America, What WaL- Mart or KMart or Sears' Policy is on Greeting customers. Jesus must be absolutly devastated that they are tainting His special day....
Get a grip...

Well here they are wanting to change christmas to the winter soltstice ( i cant spell) and the city of fort collins wasnt goin gto put up any christmas trees as part of their decorations this year.........Our sherrif put up a christmas tree decoration anyways and my hats off to him.

Okay, let's suppose that instead of "Merry Christmas," everyone went around saying, "Happy Eid'ul-Adha [a Muslim December holiday]," or "Happy Hanukkah," or "Merry Kwanzaa," or even "Merry Winter Solstice"? Wouldn't you, as a Christian, feel slighted and disrespected?

Like it or not, Christians do not have proprietary rights to the December holiday.

I tend to be pretty attentive to my surroundings, what's going on in the Nation, World... Yet somehow I am left feeling somewhat ignorant. I am unfamiliar with any movement towards changing the date Christ's birthday is celebrated. Or the Christmas Nazi's that must be raping and pillaging my Christian Brethren in neighborhoods all over this country this very minute!

I've seen no military convoys in my neighborhood piled to the rails with wrapped presents, decorated Christmas trees, garland and mistletoe... With a stream of bound people following behind under threat of gunfire... I've heard no Amber alerts announcing entire church youth groups disappearing in the night while caroling...

Please pardon my sarcasm.. but..do you see my point?

I'm not subject to this? I'm Christian. Sure..at times I've been a bit harassed... but nothing that I specifically remember. I've also been witness to some pretty overzealous (I'm being kind here) Christian pressing their will on others. I do remember those!

Then..there is the subject of politics... Not Church and State.. just Politics and Christians.

I've seen more and more Christians seek and obtain political power, rather then be satisfied with political participation. Either openly participating in the obviously unethical practices we find politics so full of today, in an effort to further the Christian agenda and personal gain... or turning a blind eye to it.

Sure it can be tough..being a part of secular society and remaining faithful to your beliefs. It is a sort of dual existence riddled with complex layers, ambiguous thoughts and feelings. A good rule that many forget is to live your life as best you can like Jesus lived his. Aside from the many and somewhat sordid definitions of what exactly that means.. That does not mean that because we are Christian, our ethical and morale stance is the correct one for everyone. That somehow...because we are Christian we have some sort of religious authorization and are compelled to write laws, and make motions, that reflect this. Sure, we should be heard.. and the National values should reflect that as a Nation we are a Nation of many beliefs. That..in my opinion is more of what Jesus had in mind.

If I was not Christian... I think I would feel a bit oppressed right now..Regardless of whether I was a student of Buddism, Studied the Qur'an, Hindu, African Diasporic, Pagan, Scientologist or secular. Just for this aspect of this new Christian political movement.

I am an Atheist and it's still Merry Christmas.

Happy holidays my ass.......

It is what it is......and as the saying goes...."If it works why change it." and I don't care if other religions have there days just leave ours alone.

But what you are not understanding, it ISN'T just yours.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!!

gustava, I have been trying to say the same thing. Monopolizing the holiday and wanting everything and all to say Merry Christmas when others celebrate something else is disrespectful. Cover all people to show all people you respect their religion so they can respect yours. If this cannot be done then make the holiday only celebrated at home and no public displays at all other than the homes and leave it at that. Just like I tell the kids if you can't respect each other you can't play at all.