I agree Swede....

personally I say Merry Christmas to everyone unless I know they celebrate another festive holiday this time of year. If anyone gets offended....

then Merry Kiss My A**

As a society we have taken this PC crap too far!!!

It will always be Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. No "Happy Holidays" here.

The history of "In God We Trust" Starts in 1861. Long after the Founding Fathers were involved in our Government, or even alive at all. http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

In so far as the Founding Fathers being devoted to the Church... These quotes below offer an opposing view.

As for my personal views on the subject. I can pick a myriad of things to worry about that have priority over this disagreement.

I say "Merry Christmas". You say "Happy Holiday's". We get on with our respective days.
If you are offended? I have always felt it is better to give a resentment then to get one. I'll get on with my day.. you get stuck in resentment.

_____________________________________________________________
"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." - Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780;)

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." - Thomas Paine (Common Sense, 1776.)

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry

"That religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience." - Patrick Henry (Virginia Bill of Rights, June 12, 1776.)

((((((((((Jistme)))))))))))))



Missed ya buddy!!!!!

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year

Christmas: The Greatest Gift of all...... Jesus Christ..THE Only Begotten Son Of God...Hallelujah

"As for my personal views on the subject. I can pick a myriad of things to worry about that have priority over this disagreement.

I say "Merry Christmas". You say "Happy Holiday's". We get on with our respective days.
If you are offended? I have always felt it is better to give a resentment then to get one. I'll get on with my day.. you get stuck in resentment."

You know Dave I agree with not making a big deal. I'm pretty easy going. But this isn't about offense taken.

It's about being forced NOT to say what is on people's hearts. Retailers are insisting their sales staff not say the dreaded words "Merry Christmas" (as if they could bring dread)....

That's all.

I agree that people of the faith may take things to far sometimes, but so do liberals. It goes both ways. I wish people could all just get along.

As I said earlier, the point of this thread is not to argue, but to share a well stated video. That's all...

A lot of truth in this The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.





My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees.




It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.




I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.




Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.




In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.




Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'




In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.




Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.




Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.




Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'





Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.




Are you laughing?




Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.




Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.




Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in. My Best Regards.





Honestly and respectfully,




Ben Stein

Jist you are always a rain of knowledge and I just love it, don't ever stop

Excellent .. thanks for the quote.

you do that stuff too?hell i used to do that WHILE i was working at Wal-Mart


of course i'd blame it on some 7 year old "that i saw running around the store"

Hey JT how you been hon?

Btw, the exact same take that the video shows about the ludicrous way this is being handled across the US..was dealt with by Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes last Sunday.


He took the same stand. Just sayin'


(((((((((( MERRY CHRISTMAS ))))))))))))))

and the stores that encourage the holiday the way it has always been .. will be getting my money.

Merry Tossmas!

This will be one of the shortest posts you will see from me...

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

I know. Yes it is a bit disconcerting. To be devils advocate though.. As a business owner I can not force an employee to represent my business as I see fit. I could ask them to greet my clients in a certain way... and they can go find work elsewhere if they strongly disagree. Very rarely do I have employees, but I do have standards to adhere to in regards to behavior and appearance when I do. I've run into a few that thought I was being too picky. Sometimes, that was their last day.

Let's say that I am Jewish for discussions sake. I want anyone on the clock to address people with "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Holidays".. but not "Merry Christmas". So long as I'm signing the checks? Regardless of how uptight it might seem..It is my right to request it.

Well I agree ... but I think the bottom line of contention here is what 'our house' started out as.

In 'our house' you shouldn't try to change 'our rules' and that's what's happening here.

'Our house' has always been a multi cultural, multi belief house. A mix of different languages and dialects... traditions and lifestyles. What one might consider honorable..some might consider contemptuous.

Yes.. the majority is of Christian faith in this country. Just because it is the majority, does not make it necessarily the correct or only way. It is just one of many ways. Of course, the left have a tendency to push the envelope of political correctness at times.. just as the right have a way of pushing the envelope, insisting all of us get on their wagon, since some of us live outside of our tradition.

Depending on what side of the line you stand on.. Either side can make the argument the other side is changing the rules.

It is an argument that will stand the test of time I'm afraid. Thousands of years of bloodshed and despair have occurred over this argument. America was ~in ideal anyway~ a social experiment in trying to solve much of that. Yet here we are still arguing.

P.S. In no way is this pointed at you specifically, Fade. It is simply a general commentary on the dynamics of this whole discussion.

Hi Dave Nice to see your cutiful face again.

All I know is "In God We Trust" has always been there...Now people for stupid reasons want it gone. Why what are they so scared of. And I think again it comes down to personal belief.....I know also that Christ was not born on December 25th but that is when we celebrate it..and now they want to take that also....Why again what are they afraid of? Anyone can say whatever they wish...Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas.......But don't dare say an employee who works for me can't say Merry Christmas that its now in the Bylaws of that company....Rubish....Just like taking prayer out of schools.....If people don't pray then just don't. If people want to then so be it. When I am in a restaurant and we say grace before we eat. I don't care what people around me think.....I do it for God....

And again as I always say I have a relationship with God not a religion with God.

Thanks Deb.

Yet.. "In God We Trust" has not always been there. If we look at our lifetime...Yes of course. However "always" is inclusive of my lifetime, not my lifetime.

I'm thinking if there is a group that wants to take Christmas away, as you claim.. it is a rather small and insignificant group. We empower them by giving them unwarranted attention such as this thread though.

Actually.. I believe that most of the minority simply wants to be heard and respected. Just as you want to be heard and respected. I don't think that is an unreasonable thing to ask.

I'm tired of Rockin' Round the Christmas Tree ...........

so with that I bid all a


(((((((((((((((( MERRY CHRISTMAS !!! ))))))))))))))))))


*note to Deb, this is exactly why I don't get involved in the religion threads. Just toooooo much detail, and toooooo tiring.*

I love life. I love my happy place. So be it.

This for me puts it in a nutshell.....

"It's called Christmas
What more can I say?
It's about the birth of Christ
And you can't take that away
You can call it something else
But that's not what it will be
It's called Christmas With a Capital C"


Please also visit youtube and watch the video.....really good.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAckfn8yiAQ

I agree He never said it was going to be easy huh........So leave the religion threads to me....and you keep up the coffeehouse thread for all of us to go to when were weary and tired. Love you Judy.