First off let's deal with Abra.

With all due respect Josh, it’s this kind of rhetoric that offends people. The very suggesting that because someone is not a “Christian” that they necessarily have lesser morals or are obsessed with doing wrongful things.

If I were to become a Christian I would not need to change my lifestyle one iota. There is nothing I do that would conflict with Christianity.

{But you would change your perspective about the way God really works so therefore you would change some aspect of your life in one way or another}

And as you say, no one is perfect, we are all human, so even if I became a Christian that part wouldn’t change either.
In short, there is absolutely nothing I would need to give up to become a Christian.

{People can have all the morals they want but the fact still remains that just being good doesn't get you into heaven, it is a releationship with Jesus Christ that is important, if it were just based on the fact that you had to be "good" then there would be no need for Jesus to die for our sins and there would have been no reason for Him to come here at all}

I don’t denounce the Bible because I think it’s too strict to live by. On the contrary I pity anyone who feels that behaving themselves is so hard to do!

I denounce the Bible simply because I don’t believe it is from God. Period Amen. It’s an intellectual decision based on the fact that I don’t believe that the creator of this universe would be so self-centered and jealous. I don’t believe that the creator of this universe would have created an eternal hell as part of his master plan. It simply makes no sense to me.

{By the way the word Amen means I agree and you very we'll can't say that you agree with yourself because that's already a given}

What purpose would be served by making souls suffer for eternity?
Who would that benefit?
Unless God is some kind of sadist and gets a kick out of watching people suffer then why bother with hell at all? Why not just “un-create” souls who misbehave (let them perish into oblivion)
What would be the PURPOSE of making them suffer for all of eterntity?
Who would BENEFIT from that?
Can you tell me who would benefit from that?
And remember, if you say that the Devil would benefit, then why would God allow the to have the ‘pleasure’ of tormenting his creations for all of eternity?
The picture just makes no sense Josh.
How would it be beneficial to God to make a place for people to suffer for all of eternity? And if it’s not beneficial to God then why would God allow such a thing to occur? What would be the purpose of it?
Well, keep in mind, that if the Bible was written by men to keep the masses under their thumb buy scaring the HELL out of them! Then the story makes PERFECT SENSE.
But it makes no sense at all that an all-wise, all-powerful, all-loving God would create such a situation.
What would be the purpose of it? How would the be beneficial to God?
That’s really a huge reason why I don’t believe in the religion. It simply makes no sense!
I don’t believe that the picture of God that has been portrayed can possible be what the real creator of this universe would be like. The biblical picture of God is far too HUMAN! With HUMAN frailties and faults. He’s even a self-proclaimed “jealous” God. A God who gets jealous?

{You keep saying you don't understand which is why I keep saying that people are Ignorent of christianity, they have a lack of knowlege of things so there for it "Makes no sense" to them.
I keep saying that it doesn't benifit anyone and God doesn't enjoy when people go to Hell, the FACT is that people send themselves to hell, God made Hell for Satan and His demons, he never meant it to be a place for humans in any respect but when people do not follow God they follow satan to hell of they're own free will.
God never sends anyone there they send themselves by default which is why God set up rules to obey.
It's like the law here on earth, if you break a law the government has set up then you pay the price sooner or later, the judge may not want to see people go to jail but he still has to enforce the law.}

Now I'll talk to you KerryO
Josh writes:

" there is no contradiction in my post, you're just reading it the wrong way...lol"
"Nyet!" said the bear, "I am NOT a bear." -I. Tergenev, if I recall correctly.

{That was a joke, maybe you should get a sense of humor?}

"people are ignorent of christianity and they do not change their ways or want to believe christianity because it would be too hard for them to give up things God says is wrong."

In my dictionary, 'ignorance' is defined as a lack of knowledge, so how can can someone change to conform with something about which they know nothing? I suspect you're misusing the word in an attempt to appear to be less the authoritarian fan. So that when you sneak morality into the argument, you have what you think is an escape-proof prison of circular thinking that, if it's good enough for you, you think everyone should embrace.
Sorry, I don't do chains well.

{Well lets see that's kind of my point, people DO have lack of knowlege which Is why I try to teach people but when I do try and teach so they are informed I get yelled at for shoving my religion down throats.
I am not misusing the word which is why I just explained everything I just explained.
I can only explain so much it's not my fault if you don't want to listen to what I have to say, if you turn a blind eye and deaf ear on me then there is nothing I can do when you say that you weren't warned.
You may think it's chains but I think of it as a rope to guide you through the darkness.}


"I'm not getting in people's faces at all because you can't even see the way I would say it with my mouth."

Perhaps not, however many Christians are heavily into proseltyzing, and pretty much never give up trying to tell agnostics/atheists their version of The Truth.

{The thing is "our" Version of truth is truth, if you had information that could save lives wouldn't you want to share it also?}

"I am mearly stating a fact of how society treats christianity, I knew people who were muslim when I was in school who were given a time to pray in another room, yet Christians cannot pray quietly or lead a bible study or share our beliefs without it being called "shoving our religion down others throats""

Hold the 'another room' thought. Militant Christians don't want another room, they want to _monopolize_ the room. And then get all pissy about being the majority in the country when denied the same. Sheesh, you see it all the time in these threads.

{why can't we just pray in peace? you think that we want the whole room but the fact is that what is the problem with being in the room if we pray quietly? shouldn't we have the right to do that?
We are not "monopolizing a room" if we want to pray quietly, if someone bows they're head and never utter a word why is that so disturbing to you?}

"when a buddest shares his belief it is called enlightend thinking."

When's the last time a Buddhist monk showed up in your neighborhood with tracts about hellfire and damnation? (Besides, I've always kinda liked that one about "What is the sound of one hand clapping".)

{The difference is that God told us to go throughout the world and tell people where as buddests have not been told to do so, by default We as christians have to go and witness mearly because that is what God has told us to do.}

I hope this sheds a little bit of understanding and hopefully you'll be a little less Ignorent of the Facts.

Spider,

I don't care if you call me Satan Himself. Even some conservatives have said Ann Coulter goes waay over the top with some of the outrageous things she's said. To wit, suggesting that the U.S. needs to use its military might to kill all Islamic leaders and force their people to convert to Christianity.

It's become a de facto tactic among people like Ann Coulter and yourself to engage in namecalling to try to shut people up, and then either claim you were taken out of context or were joking when you're called on it. You feel the rules don't apply to you because you both feel uniquely qualified to distribute The Truth(tm) by Any Means Necessary (Patent Pending).

Someday you'll both run out of apologists and be proven wrong.



-Kerry O.

Josh wrote:
{But you would change your perspective about the way God really works so therefore you would change some aspect of your life in one way or another}

Been there done that fellow. No change. It’s simply not true. See my post in this thread,…

http://www.justsayhi.com/topic/show/49919?page=1

Josh wrote:
{People can have all the morals they want but the fact still remains that just being good doesn't get you into heaven, it is a releationship with Jesus Christ that is important, if it were just based on the fact that you had to be "good" then there would be no need for Jesus to die for our sins and there would have been no reason for Him to come here at all}

You’re right there would be no need for any such thing and this is why it’s not true. The story of Jesus was grossly misunderstood. Jesus was not God.

Josh wrote:
{By the way the word Amen means I agree and you very we'll can't say that you agree with yourself because that's already a given}

Well, if it’s a given then I can say it. Nothing wrong with stating the obvious.

Josh wrote:
{I keep saying that it doesn't benifit anyone and God doesn't enjoy when people go to Hell}

Well there you go.

The God that you’ve invented can’t possibly be all-powerful. Period Amen.

And yes, you DID invent him because you’re making up your own interpretations of what you believe to be true about him.

Moreover, if you wish to claim that this is, in fact, written in the mythology, then so be it. Then the God in that mythology can’t be all-powerful. If God can’t stop what He doesn’t “enjoy” then he has no power at all let alone being all-powerful. The story is self-inconsistent. It trips over its own lies.

All you are saying is that God HAS NO CHOICE!!!!

And if God has no choice, then he most certainly isn’t all-powerful.

So your story is self-inconsistent and makes no sense.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Either your God is all-powerful or he is NOT. Make up your mind and let me know when you get your story straight.

Having your cake and eating it to, isn't that a Christian given? Isn't that why Jesus died. Isn't that why you can go to church and smile in somebody's face then ***** about them on the way home?????

Abra, Abra, Abra, you just don't understand

Wench wrote:
“Abra, Abra, Abra, you just don't understand”

I am so sorry, I hang my head in the shame of ignorance that Christianity could even bake an edible cake in the first place. It’s more like a half-baked Twinkie.

Oh, by the way Josh,…. I ACCEPT!

I guess I forgot to tell you,... I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. No problem! If that’s what he wants to be, I accept.

There, I’ve satisfied all of the requirements of the Bible. I’m a born-again saved Christian. And let me clarify that I’ve been one for over 40 years! This wasn’t just a late revelation.

Moreover I’ve outsmarted the God of the Bible.

His first commandment was not to have any other God’s BEFORE him!

Well, I haven’t broken that commandment. He was the FIRST!

Now I worship the Goddess of Pantheism. She is my SECOND God!

I have two God’s now. So when I die I’ll have a choice. I can ask each God what they have to offer me and make the best choice at that time!

You see, I’ve outsmarted the pathetically inept God of the bible. He gave it away when he said that he was a jealous God and that we shouldn’t have any God’s before him. That was the tip-off that other God’s must exist. He let the cat out of the bag on that one!

I’ve satisfied ALL of his requirements. He has NO CHOICE but to let me into his heaven. He MUST adhere to his own inspired Book, otherwise he would be a liar and we can’t have that. So God has NO CHOICE but to let me into his heaven.

However, I like the Goddess of Pantheism better. She’s more compassionate like Redykeulous. When I die I’m going to take what she has to offer, and she’ll just ZAP the your God in his butt with her magic wand to teach him a lesson for being so grouchy and inconsistent.

So anyway, I’ve satisfied ALL of the conditions that your God has required of me. Therefore your God had NO CHOICE but to offer me his heaven. I’ll, of course, turn it down anyway and go off with my Pantheistic Goddess because she’s so much NICER!!! Her heaven is far superior to the half-baked cupcake your God seems to be offering.

In short, my invisible friend can beat up your invisible friend, so there.

Where the hell’s Jess? She didn’t get zapped by the Tao did she?

Josh writes:

"{Well lets see that's kind of my point, people DO have lack of knowlege which Is why I try to teach people but when I do try and teach so they are informed I get yelled at for shoving my religion down throats."

I'm not surprised. You barely disguise your ill will under a layer of feigned concern coupled with an authoritarian insistence that you MUST be heard because you possess The Truth(tm).

Sorry, many of us who aren't Christians have heard the same approach most of our lives. In fact, many of us were raised Christian of various denominations and just found the contradictions in the religion to be one thing we couldn't abide.

We're not, as you contend, ignorant. Many of us have read about religions, morality and philosophy extensively, quite conceivably dwarfing your alleged knowledge about its history and things like Pascal's wager.

We know what you know and choose not to believe it for reasons about which we can expound quite literately.

"I am not misusing the word which is why I just explained everything I just explained.
I can only explain so much it's not my fault if you don't want to listen to what I have to say, if you turn a blind eye and deaf ear on me then there is nothing I can do when you say that you weren't warned."

That's okay, I won't hold it against you. I'll just note that the concept of peril figures prominently in the religion your attempting to 'educate' me about--for, oh, the 60 millionth time. I've heard about hellfire at the tender age of 5 from my fundy grandmother. And that distressing dogma was part of what turned me against the religion later on.

"You may think it's chains but I think of it as a rope to guide you through the darkness.}"

Yanno, being twice your age and having been close to death twice and other nasty things, I'll go with my experiences. Sorry.

"{The thing is "our" Version of truth is truth, if you had information that could save lives wouldn't you want to share it also?}"

What the neurosurgeons used to save my hide didn't come from Internet evangelists, the Bible or any other religious text. Your dogma is doing precious little to save the world from any of its ills.

So quit kicking the toy box and insisting that you and the religion have a lock on The Truth(tm).


-Kerry O.

Abra, redevelop your hedge fund, bra!!

God... as defined by Hebrew words in the Old Testament, is actually three distinctly different words.

Christian spouters of late want to label these three as the Trinity, quite to their ignorant chagrin.

1) EL. Supreme deity
2) ELOAHH (sic) found prolifically dominate in the arguement with Job. The Judgement or sword, if you will.
3) ELOHIYM. angels. called God in the New Testament in defence of scripture, but angels by David in the OLD!!!

All three of these words are translated, or transliterated incorrectly if you will, as God throughout all English versions of the original texts.

When you have chosen to put your trust in a scripture that forbids other gods please be sure that you haven't mistakenly put your trust in a deviant description of " a spiritual guiding light or principal".

I would hate to be left with the gnawing conclusion that you may have been duped by your own assumptions without attempting to disprove their voracity, as is your hallmark for witty debate!!!

You know what abra you twist my words and lie, you left out important parts of what I said, God is Just and fair and He may not like people to go to hell but the fact is that this is our chance here on earth to follow before you become a lemming and follow satan into hell.
He won't stop you because you did it to yourselves, he IS all powerful and he DOES know what's best but if you won't listen to him then there is really nothing he can do for you because once you leave earth it will be too late to ask for forgiveness.
And second of all you have to have a sincere heart when you ask Jesus into your heart or God will see right through your lies.
by the way if you have a goddess then you have other god's before him so therefore you haven't fufilled any requirements by christian standerds.
You people may be older but you are still as ignorent of the truth despite what you may think because you will always twist my words and put things there that skue things to fit your point of view.
you may think you know about the Bible but you obviously are sorely misstaken because you did not understand it.
You think there are descrepencys in the Bible but if you truely read it correctly and understood it then you would see everything coinsides with everything else, you take apart things and you leave something else out because you don't "like that part" so you are afraid of it and call it off all together because you don't understand parts of it.
you deem it confusing and uninteligable jibberish , would you say the same thing if you picked up a book from Japan and tryed to read it, you look at it every which way and can't understand it in anyway, you try to read it for 40 years and still can't understand, the fact is that to understand it you must first learn how to read Japanese and the same goes for the Bible you can read it for 40 years and you will never understand it because you toss it to the side and say it doesn't make sense.
if you Did know what I know then you would be the same as I am or at the very least not acting the way you people are with half truths and blind lies.

Elohim (Elohiym, Elohym) means gods. Benei Elohim means sons of God aka Malach (Angels).

Josh wrote:
“You know what abra you twist my words and lie”

You’re mistaken Josh. I don’t lie. If you believe that I misunderstood something you’ve said just say so. No need to accuse me of being a liar.

Josh wrote:
“And second of all you have to have a sincere heart when you ask Jesus into your heart or God will see right through your lies.”

I’m totally aware of that and my heart is as sincere as any man’s heart can be, thank you.

Josh wrote:
”by the way if you have a goddess then you have other god's before him so therefore you haven't fufilled any requirements by christian standerds.”

I’m sorry Josh, but that’s not what I’ve read in the Bible. God simply said not to have any God’s BEFORE him, and I didn’t. So I am in complete compliance with God’s wishes. If he wanted something different he should have rephrased his commandments.

Josh wrote:
”You people may be older but you are still as ignorent of the truth despite what you may think because you will always twist my words and put things there that skue things to fit your point of view.”

We’re not twisting your words Josh. We’re simply sharing our views with you. Just like you are sharing your views with us.

Josh wrote:
“you may think you know about the Bible but you obviously are sorely misstaken because you did not understand it.”

I beg your pardon sir by you are wrong. My interpretation of the Bible is just as valid as anyone else’s.

Josh wrote:
“You think there are descrepencys in the Bible but if you truely read it correctly and understood it then you would see everything coinsides with everything else, you take apart things and you leave something else out because you don't "like that part" so you are afraid of it and call it off all together because you don't understand parts of it.”

I just chalk it up to obvious errors in translations, editing, and publishing. Everyone knows that humans make mistakes and the Bible is thousands of years old. We’re lucky to be able to glean anything from it at all today actually.

Josh wrote:
“you deem it confusing and uninteligable jibberish , would you say the same thing if you picked up a book from Japan and tryed to read it, you look at it every which way and can't understand it in anyway, you try to read it for 40 years and still can't understand, the fact is that to understand it you must first learn how to read Japanese and the same goes for the Bible you can read it for 40 years and you will never understand it because you toss it to the side and say it doesn't make sense.”

You just have it all wrong. It’s perfectly clear to me that there are many publishing errors in the book. I’ve even been thinking recently about rewriting it as a favor and service to God. Perhaps that’s my purpose on this earth.

Josh wrote:
”if you Did know what I know then you would be the same as I am or at the very least not acting the way you people are with half truths and blind lies.”

Well there you go again calling other people’s interpretations and opinions “lies” . May I suggest a course in diplomacy? Calling people who hold different beliefs than you do ‘liars’ isn’t going to get you very far in life.

God loves me and I have already established my place in heaven by fulfilling all of his requests and requirements.

This I believe. Praise the Lord!

I still miss Jess though.

Big old honkin sigh, missing people, good one to miss. Grrrr, faith in people/faith in God. Whadda ya think, Abra, does that cause a conflict of interest biblically too????

I'd have to say no, but got to have an Adj moment here and add, but then again, what do I know.........

Wench wrote:
“Big old honkin sigh, missing people, good one to miss. Grrrr, faith in people/faith in God. Whadda ya think, Abra, does that cause a conflict of interest biblically too????”

I’ve just had a revelation recently. Rather than choosing just one picture of God I have decided to embrace them all. After all, wouldn’t that be the ultimate respect of religion.

John Lennon once suggested that the earth would be a great place if there where no religion. However, the problem is not with religion per say. The problem is with too many religions that conflict with each other.

One choice would be to denounce religion altogether. But that means either becoming an atheist, or simply being spiritual in a non-religious way which is kind of an oxymoron actually.

Maybe a better approach to the problem is just to embrace all religions simultaneously.

Of course this presents a nightmare of entangled and conflicting logistics. But the Bible has survived that self-inflicted condition for several millennia anyway thus proving that logic is irrelevant.

I’m going to start a new religion called, “Bring Jess Back”.

Actually I think I’ll give it a different name but for now that’s all I can come up with.

Religion byline, Lone Instrument seeks the Symphony of the Outback

To Spider.

Deservedly I mispoke and erred from my point. My memory of things studied quite judiciously has slipped in terms of the accuracy of things learned without being as careful as I should.

Thank you for stirring a correction on my part. Without being derogatory or argumentative i will explain.

Psalms 8: 4-5) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man , that thou visitest him?

For thou hast made him a little lower than the ANGELS , and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

The word for 'angels' is in Hebrew #430 as found in The Strong's Exhaustive Concordance as being elohiym- plural of 433 'gods' in the ordinary sense; but spec. used ( in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the SUPREME God; occasionally applied by way of deference to 'magistrates'; and sometimes as a superlative: _angels, X exceeding, God, (gods) (-dess, -ly,), X ( very) great, judges, X mighty.

In the New Testament, we find Hebrews2: 6-7 saying this....

6) But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, and that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7)Thou madest him a little lower than the ANGELS, thou crowndest him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

This word for angels is 32 in the Greek, and Not, I repeat, NOT theos!!!! but "aggelos". - a messemger; esp. an "angel"; by implication a 'pastor';_angel, messenger.


If the Bible is clearly harmonizing itself as it should, and interpretation must clearly reflect the intent and context of previous prophetic utterance with regards to the Messianic basis for its very existence, then clearly its own admissions are sufficient to debunk any argument to the contrary, notwithstanding the intended revelation of truth as it is supposed is the case with Scriptures referencing the coming of Christ.


Having said that, my inference was not that angels are God, but that the Jewish understanding off angels is different than the Christian theologians' view in terms of transliteration of texts, where it comes to specific uses of any given word.

My example is historically correct and my reading of The Book of Job made clear by reading each word for God as it really is, not as has been given by careless and subjective translators.

Further more, dear Spider, I think you may find that 'children of angels' has a more dire consequence than 'chidren of God' when depicting the fate of early believers who slept in anticipation of the coming of the Messiah after their generation had passed without the manifestation presently being available. Imagine being buried with your faith having not been answered in timely fashion, and yet sleeping with the knowledge that such a thing would surely occur and not leave one helpless.

Just a footnote... Hell was not created for man, but for the fallen angels. That man may find a home there was not intended, nor encouraged by Scripture, when read correctly.

Abra;

Though I would not argue with your sense of tolerance, fair play, and moral rightiousness - on this part of your post:

==============================================================
"In short, there is absolutely nothing I would need to give up to become a Christian.

I don’t denounce the Bible because I think it’s too strict to live by. On the contrary I pity anyone who feels that behaving themselves is so hard to do!"
===============================================================

I'd have to say that it would be a contradiction to become a Christian and denounce the bible. So, you'd - at the least - have to change that part of your life, and give up the denouncing.

Eljay wrote:
“I'd have to say that it would be a contradiction to become a Christian and denounce the bible. So, you'd - at the least - have to change that part of your life, and give up the denouncing.”

Oh no, not at all.

It has become increasingly clear to me that the book has been interpreted differently by everyone who reads it. This is perfectly clear by the way that so many different Christians voice different interpretations using the same book and even the same passages. Not only on an individual level but even on the level of organics churches with so many different sects of Christianity.

It’s crystal clear that they are all confused. There can be no doubt about that.

They denounce each other. I just heard someone the other day saying that Catholics aren’t Christians. :laughs:

So it bothers me not that you might not accept my interpretation of Christianity. It’s perfectly clear that Christians do not accept each other’s interpretations.

As you know, I am also a Pantheist. I can be both. In fact, it is the only respectable thing to do. Man should embrace all religion. The Christian God merely demanded to be first on the list.

So I put him first to make him happy.

I try to please everyone.

I think my Pantheist god is actually the “Holy Spirit”. I think she’s helping the Biblical God with his creation. He’s obvioulsy experimenting and making mistakes so She’s probably helping him out with things. This must be his first time round as a God.

So I’m looking at it like Pantheism is the “Holy Spirit”, whilst the Godhead of the Bible is her student, and Jesus was just a man (filled with the Holy Spirit of course).

So that’s my bigger picture.

You see I have no reason to reject other religions. There’s no where in the Bible where it says that beliving in other religions is prohibited. As long as Grouchy gets to be the FIRST God he’s happy. We can humor him on that one.

What have you got to loose.....But all that you could gain.

Feral wrote:
“What have you got to loose.....But all that you could gain.”

Well everyone says that we should respect everyone else’s religion.

What better way to respect all religions than by simply making them all your own.

If there’s only one God like everyone likes to claim, then all religions must stem from her anyway.

Josh writes:

"You people may be older but you are still as ignorent of the truth despite what you may think because you will always twist my words and put things there that skue things to fit your point of view.
you may think you know about the Bible but you obviously are sorely misstaken because you did not understand it.
You think there are descrepencys in the Bible but if you truely read it correctly and understood it then you would see everything coinsides with everything else, you take apart things and you leave something else out because you don't "like that part" so you are afraid of it and call it off all together because you don't understand parts of it."

Alrighty then, compare the order of creation in Genesis Chapter One with that of Chapter Two. There's a demonstable discrepancy that can't be explained away by interpretation, made worse by the supposed inerrancy many of you claim.

Go to Leviticus chapter 11 verse 6-- where it says the rabbit chews the cud. Yet, we know that a rabbit isn't a ruminant.

Jesus' very last words should have been the best remembered in all the Bible. Yet, amazingly, the gospel authors cannot agree on what those last words of Jesus were! Per Matthew and Mark, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Per Luke, "Father, into Your hands I commend my spirit." Per John, "It is finished."

So Josh, which is correct?


-Kerry O.