Ooh ooh! Eee eee! Ah ah!

historically this is where abra will write a book telling us again how illogical we all are instead of answering the question. as far as i know The bible has yet to be disproved..... waiting....

rambill79,

==============================================================
spider... do you believe that the earth is 6000 of OUR years old? hmmmmmm
==============================================================

Excellent question. I believe that the earth might be 6000 years old. What nobody here has cared to learn is that I am open minded to all science. I look at science as a computer programmer, applying logic to the data and coming to a conclusion. I am open to an old earth, just as I am open to a young earth. I have read arguments on both sides. Either way, science does not dictate my religious beliefs. The Bible is the authority and science may reveal how God did some of the wonderful things He has done. The fact that I believe a young earth possible is ridiculed here, but nobody has yet asked me what evidence has led me to the conclusion that it is possible. They simply stuff words into my mouth and demand that I believe it because the Bible says it. "Yom" means a period of time, it was translated as "day", but it could be a billion years. My faith is still standing either way. Do I believe that the earth is 6000 years old? The most honest answer I can give is this: I know that I will eventually know how old the earth is and a great many details of the creation. For now I think it is intellectually stimulating to theorize how the Earth may have been created. The age of the earth and the meaning of "Yom" in Genesis 1 have no bearing on my salvation.

thats a damn good answer there spidey

Spider wrote:
"So please, give some evidence and I will do my best to show you that it can be applied to creationism."

Thank you for the offer Spider, but I’m really not interested in any theories about creationism. Evolution is not a religion for me. It’s just where the evidence points to for those in search of truth. It has nothing to do with religion as far as I’m concerned. I don’t consider myself to be an “evolutionist”. I just understand the science and it’s perfectly sound as far as I’m concerned.

With respect to any biblical picture of God I wouldn’t be interested in talking about these kinds of issues anyway. There are much deeper philosophical issues that I would need to address first. Like how an all-powerful God could cast a Devil out of his heaven and then allow him to come back and screw with his creation?

Either that would mean that God is not all-powerful, or it would mean that he had planned it that way from the beginning and is then basically in cahoots with the Devil. Either conclusion is not looking good for that picture of God. So any ideas about creationism would take a back seat to those kinds of philosophical issues anyway.

I think that most Christians can answer the theodice. I'll leave it to someone else to answer (I already created a thread on this issue), but if nobody comes along, I'll post something later.

If you follow the link below, you will find some very good answers to theodicy.

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5350#1evil

For specific questions, please email me, so that this thread can get back on track.

Abra,

I think we need to come to our senses and admit what is now becoming an overwhelming revelation to me, and most likely to you also.

"christian-fundamentalism", this word-for-word belief in the 2000 year old book, as the word of a particular god, and the absolute truth over all and everything else,
... IS REALLY A FORCE FOR GOOD!

... when you take out,

... the murders,
... mass genocides committed by god himself as documented in his book,
... the religious wars,
... the inquisitions,
... the witch burnings at the stake,
... shooting of abortion doctors,
... bible promotion of slavery,
... pedophile priests,
... systematic oppression of women,
... systematic oppression of minorities,
... systematic oppression of homosexuality,
... the spread of ignorance,
... the aversion to protect people against STD,
... the campaign against the use of condoms, thus contributing to spread AIDS in third world countries,
... the creative, adaptable, convenient, if inconsistent interpretation of WHAT IS TRUE,
... their creative and inconsistent interpretation of 'THOU SHALT NOT KILL',

You have to come to the same conclusion I have Abra, TAKE OUT THESE MINOR POINTS!!!
... and all you've got left is the fact that 'fundamantalist christians' are a pure force for good !!!

voileazur,

I find your post interesting. Tell me, would you like to have the responsiblity for all those murdered in the name of atheism laid at your feet? 100 million people were killed in the name of the communist regimes, which were founded on a belief in no God. I think that nobody should be held accountable for actions which were not their own.

spider,

you wrote:

"... I think that nobody should be held accountable for actions which were not their own..."

You're so right spider.

But 'Christian fundamentalists' today are totally responsible for their words and actions which keep spreading this MENTALITY OF FEAR of anything and everything which doesn't line-up with their word-for-word bible dogma, and fosters the same irrational and undefendable animosity and violence towards so many of their fellow humans, as their fellows 'christian fundamentalists' of previous eras.

Spreading this 'bullroy' about this borrowed, fabricated and fallacious concept of 'Islamo-Facsists' just to seed and forment fear, division, and another senseless war against the 'christian fundamentalist' 'axis of evil' is very much something you are participating in 'spider'.

Also 'spider', I'm sure if you look at that list again, you'll find at least one or two items on there that you and your fellows 'fundamentalist mercenaries' are deeply involved with, and with a charge of lucidity, and a change of heart, you could help change for the better.

"yes voil the truth is very flexible when it comes to the bible, what bugs me is how evolution is considered a theory when we have far more proof of it than gods divinity which by their logic ought to be considered a "theory" "

Absolutely. I have to agree. I mean - Cavemen still exist. I just saw a whole bunch of them on the T.V. Therefore cavemen still exist, so Evolution has to be true. I mean, how can that fact be denied!

Stop feeding the Trolls!

Spider wrote:

"Abracadabra,

You will have to forgive me, I just realized I allowed you to get me off track agian. While I will run down this rabbit trail with you, if you really want to, my request to you is still unanswered. I find that telling, that you claim that the Bible is full of "self-inconsistencies" (I'm not sure what that means), so I have asked for examples. Do you have any examples of "self-inconsistencies" in the Bible? Please post a couple, so that we can have a logical debate as to the merits of your arguments."

He can't write about what he doesn't know.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

It is time for people of reason, believers and atheists alike, to come together and denounce the 'christian fundamentalism', and help others free themselves up from this 'FEAR OF GOD AND HELL' cult that has been brainwashed into them from birth.

We as a society are allowing the mental abuse of our children and fellow humans everytime we let 'fundamentalists' off with their mascarade of intimidation, fear tactics, manipulative marketing ploys: 100's of sites of 'christian fundamentalist' propaganda, actively force feeding arguments and counter arguments to their 'fieldforce', for everything, anyone can possibly come up with on the streets, at parties, at the office, at home, ... and of course on these forums, which 'fundamentalists' race to moralistically make 'bible-correct'.

ENOUGH!!!

If you feel emotionnally charged with these comments, it is entirely possible that the 'fundamentalist sirenes' have gotten through to you with their 'fear of hell' hypnosis.

... But it's not too late!!!

Gain back DOMINION over your freedom of thought and full self expression. Drop the fear, and the 'religious army' tracks and 'fundamentalist party' lines.

Hey! I feel like a 'fundamentalist-counter-fundamentalist'!!!


How about that!!!

Telephone Man you said:

>People born that way because their parents pumped oodles of narcotics into their systems prior to the baby being born... I guess they are creating mutations that are going to take over the world... LOL

I have never done drugs...I realize you are trying to stress your opinion... but as a parent of one these mutant children... go easy...

Maybe as far as evolution...and genetic issues, maybe she was the one that evolved to the next level.... depends on your definition of a mutant... and what is in your heart.

Voileazur;

What is ENOUGH - is the unfounded premises you have of - what you have "labelled" as Christian Fundamentalists, then stating that Spider, Feral, et al ARE Christian Fundamentalists, there-by implying that they represent these attributes. What is the matter with you? I don't see Spider pointing out the attrocities of Stalin, and calling you a Stalinist because you're an Athiest. Aren't you and Abra supposed to be the "Mathematicians" here? Neither one of you would make it out of a Basic Logic class with the remotest chance of passing. Your premises are absurd and your "facts" anything but the obvious anger you have over something God has done to you - or not done for you. Get over yourselves. What point does it make to cite the "Inquisition" as any representation of "Christianity"? Who says that the dis-illusioned, brain washed loosers who shoot Abortion Doctors are Christians? Because the media said so? If you believe that, your a bigger fool than they are. Stop stating your "well thought out theories" as facts about Christianity. Neither of you knows anything about Christianity. It's obvious from your posts.

Eljay,

As I wrote earlier,

"... If you feel emotionnally charged with these comments, it is entirely possible that the 'fundamentalist sirenes' have gotten through to you with their 'fear of hell' and 'eternal redemption' hypnosis..."


Evolution is not a religious topic. It has nothing to do with the 50 contradicting variations of the so-called 'creationist' religious based metaphors.

There is no debate to be had on that premise. There are no debates in the scientific community about evolution vs a piece of dogmatic religious belief. Only the fundamentalists (and I never mentionned 'Feral') mostly of the US Protestant persuasion, are forcing this false debate strictly based on the fact that evolution appears to disagree with their dogmatic verbatim interpretation of the 'book'.

Believe in the book. Base your whole life on it if you wish, that is your prerogative.

But please stop insulting basic human intelligence with the 'fundamentalist' party line, which ridiculously confuses 'revealed faith' personnal beliefs, and reality.

The bible might be a great book to you, and that is fine. And maybe you chose it as 'your truth', and again that is fine.

But believe me when I tell you that the bible is only true to those whom 'let in', and entertain the revealed faith which comes with it. It is only true, through 'revealed faith'!!! PERIOD. You know the...

"... god revealing through man and the book that you're all sinners, and you need to be ready to answer to god at the end of your life, and god sent us his son Jesus, whom died for your sins, and if you accept Jesus into your life as you savior and lord, then you won't have to worry about the sinner that you are at judgment day and go straight to
heaven!!!..."

To extend this revealed faith concept and turn it into a pseudo-science, in order to attack the non-revealed faith dimension of the world, because you can't reconcile evolution with your book, is delusionnal!!!

Enough is enough!!! Let's debate on topics that are debatable. A belief which travestites itself as a fact, does not a debate make.

Eljay wrote:

"Stop feeding the Trolls! "

What short threads we would have.

And where would I get my morning laughs?

I love the evolution debate, as it shows how much faith people have in the most modern of priests.

voil... i havent done any of those things that organised religion has done over the millinia. Historically, the organised church has shunned bible truths to further thier own objectives. You are absolutly right about that. This does not change the bible message, it shows human nature. The message has always been the same, its mankind that is the problem.... just as the book says.

i for one should not be labeled a so called christian fundamentalist, whatever that might be. I follow no dogma, believe no sermon unless it is based on bible truth and law, a source which is sorely lacking in religion, both historically and modern churches. i interpet the bible literally, realising that there are double meanings and prophesy in most passages. if something i read in the bible doesent conform to popular belief, church dogma, ect, its OUT. The book is obviously of divine origion due to the way it is written. For proof, read it yourself. What other book can you spend a lifetime studing and still get more out of it every time? I challenge you to find one other example. From my chair, the scientific evidence and the bible stories are in perfect harmony.
Then there was the explorer who wanted to disprove the bible. He traveled to the place where ther was supposed to be a city according to the book. Nothing but desert sand. He, with shovel in hand, decried his finding to the press. he takes the shovel, sticks it in the ground to make his point, and,,, click. He hits what turns out to be the top of the tallest building in a huge city buried in the sand.

"What other book can you spend a lifetime studing and still get more out of it every time?"

Many have said this of the Bhagavad Gita (sp). Its even been said of Shakespeare (sp).

Me, I'm still finding new meanings and lessons in Dr. Seuss (sp).

(sp) means I don't know how to spell.