somebody said "Either you believe and follow or you go to hell. Where's the free will? "
it is this sort of intolerant attitude that really angers nonchristians

Who said that Lizard?

i think kidatheart, but he wasnt saying it he was just pointing out that attitude but sadly some people do have that attitude and it really is a slap in the face to nonchristians

I may be wrong about this Lizard, but that slap in the face you were given as a non-believer was made by a non-believer.

Believers? Non Believers? Anger?

I have been in these topics for some time now. I see many times that things get talked about and discussed, mostly discussed within a reasonable fashion.
I would hope that I try and be as kind and considerate as I would want others to be to me. And even if they cannot be kind, I will.
I see the words attack used so many times, and often wonder why? I guess we all have different ways of viewing talks here on these very forums.

I believe in God with Jesus as His only Son. The only Son that rose and will come again to show us the truth.

That does not mean that I cannot have people that have different beliefs than I, as friends. Or no belief at all. It is the human factor that is at play for me.

I love all the questions and answeres and differing views.
Kat

Belushi;

The point that you are drawing your conclusion from in a "logical" fashion - is in fact, illogical. You are establishing a precidence for "Predestination", and equating that with the statement "There is no free will". In doing so - you have grabbed the scripture from Romans, and stated that this passage supports you premise. Now - assuming your premise to be true, you have added additional scriptures that appear to support the premise, assume now that there can be no doubt that your original statement is now true. Aside from the fact that your method of arriving to your original premise is shaky at best (That of Predetermination) you have incorporated the "fallacy of the shifting middle" to support the conclusion of Man not having free-will, and stating the bible says so.

Though it is an absolute truth that God knows who will be saved and who will not - it does not follow that man no longer has free choice. God knows who will be saved and who will not because He exists outside of the "time factor" that we as a spieces are confined to. He already knows what choices people will make - before they are aware there is a choice. So, given this fact (as God is omniscient) he knows to whom he will give favor, and to whom he will not. Because it's all already happened to God. However - he does not disrupt the "time continuum" that man exists within. The time will still come for everyone to make their choice. Some will seek guidance, and make their choice. Others will simply make their choice. But does God make the choice for any of us? Since by self admittance, you don't believe in God, how has your free-will been effected? Have you not made the choice to "dis-believe" in a God given the information you have been confronted with? When you consult the bible - do you do it with the intent to find inadequacies that support your position - or do you assume it to be true, and seek to find whether or not the "inadequancies" might possibly be a mis-interpretation on your part? Either way - the choice has been yours. Not Gods.

Kat wrote"
"I love all the questions and answeres and differing views"

Me too! Me too!

Sure sometimes I get drawn in and excited about a topic, occasionally I can even get stressed over some subjects... but it's only for a minute or two... then I remember myself.

~~~~~~
Eljay-

Thanks for trying to seperate the concepts of non-christian from non-believer.

We all have beliefs and passions and expressing them is a way of community for each of us. Now when one comes in with a view outside our realm of understanding or it goes against how we were brought up, we get defensive... power in numbers... but it is those views shared that we have 2 choices, we can go go on attack and drill our beliefs into the mother core or we can say ok that is another way to see it and move forward...

Myself I try to stay humorous and try to find laughter...even in the BIBLE it has the best comic relief...

What would it take as a human race to have happen before all these differences could be put aside and work together??

That is the question...

LJ wrote:
“What would it take as a human race to have happen before all these differences could be put aside and work together??”

Well, one thing that would help is if people weren’t always telling other people that they need to believe in a particular book in order to win the favor of God and be ‘saved’.

Obviously, doing away with this one difference isn’t going to solve all the problems of the world. But it’s certainly one of the differences that could easily be put aside.