If all these "believers" actually understood the Word of their God, then they would ignore any slight because we are predisposed to decry all religion.

What did Jesus say about it?

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Jn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

So, going slightly off at a tangent, doesnt that last one intimate that there is no free will in a religion based on the existence of the Son of God?

Not only does the existence of God logically, philosophically and theologically deny the possibility of free will, but the Bible also says and teaches that there is no free will.

Examining Exodus, Ecclesiastes 7, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Acts 13, Romans 8, Romans 9, 2 Timothy, 2 Thessalonians and Revelations, we see that God's plan overrides our free will; those that do good do the specific good that God predestined them to do, and all others are ruled by Satan because God sends "powerful delusions" to them.

The Christian Bible frequently states that God creates our future and decides our fates, no matter what our own will is. It constantly denies that we have free will.

So, why get angry at something that cannot be helped?

If you truly believed, then God is the all powerful being, if he takes umbrage at my disbelief, then he can come down here and kick my butt!!!

But I have a feeling, somehow, it isnt going to happen, as I have the free will enough to question its existence.

Belushi wrote:
“Not only does the existence of God logically, philosophically and theologically deny the possibility of free will, but the Bible also says and teaches that there is no free will.”

Once a person realizes that the Bible was indeed written by men for the purpose of implementing patriarchic rules over their societies then everything in the Bible makes perfect sense. It’s only when it is viewed as having been inspired by a divine supernatural being that it becomes extremely problematic.

This is what I have come to realize as truth.

Why should someone else become angry when I share my own personal life’s experience? It’s been my life’s experience to have been taught that the stories in the Bible were the inspired word of God. It has been my life’s experience to come to the realization that this can’t possibly be true.

That’s my truth.

Why should the truth of my life’s experience anger someone else?

I even have a much better picture of god to offer them if they would like to know god. The god I know is indeed all-loving and has no hell or damnation to offer. Nor does she care what stories you believe in.

Belushi,

"The Christian Bible frequently states that God creates our future and decides our fates, no matter what our own will is. It constantly denies that we have free will. "

I suppose that you don't realize that there has been a debate within Christianity on this matter for several hundred years. You say "The Christian Bible frequently states...", but I can't find a single time where I agree with that statement. If mankind lacked freewill, then there would be no purpose in our existance. In fact, the Bible frequently describes the Hebrews as "stiff-necked", because they were constantly disobeying God. If their every misdoing were predecided by God, then God would have to be mentally ill to become angry at them for something He made them do. I have seen many non-Christians reject the Bible, but automatically glomb onto the Calvinist doctrine of no free will. Invaribly, its not because they believe any scriptures they have read, its because Calvinism insults God by calling Him insane and evil, while at the same time their beliefs make Christian theology laughable. If you truely want to see what Christians beleive, you should look at the fact that most Christian chruches are Armenist, not Calvinist. You will also find that a great deal of scripture directly refutes the basic premise of Calvinism.

Either you believe and follow or you go to hell. Where's the free will?
Religion and the literature associated with it are designed to make you fear the unknown and cling to a "truth" that is shared by many, therefore making it a "mass reality", bringing you a sense of belonging, structure, order and hope. If that's what you're looking for and found or what you're raised to believe then you will naturally try to defend it.
I get the feeling some days that people get angry at others for questioning their beliefs because they have doubts about their faith. Whether they truly, wholeheartedly, undeniably believe it or not because it's all they have. To each their own but I don't believe any of it.
I'm not trying to convert anyone away from their prospective religion or faith but PLEASE DO NOT try to convert me to yours.
If there really was a god, would he need all these "salesmen" to get the goods across? Or would he/she/it be able to reach us all without their methodology? How can there be so many different "brands" of god and religion and any of it be believable?

Redy

Well, I can't speak for all of the Christians on the site, otr those who post anyway - but I do not get angry at anyone who does not agree with - or believe in "my God" - if you will. However, when one makes statements about Christianity or Christians as a general overview of what we are all like, or makes statemets such as this one by Belushi:

“Not only does the existence of God logically, philosophically and theologically deny the possibility of free will, but the Bible also says and teaches that there is no free will.”

I feel obliged to speak up. He is wrong. The bible does not teach that there is no free will - he has made this statement and sighted passages to back his opinion up. This is what Cults do, and the religions he and Abra are so against. It is wrong exegesis, and faulty proof. I'm not angry at him that he's done this - just concerned for him because he likely doesn't even realise he has convinced himself of a logical fallacy. Many non-Christians (in deference to Anoasis) come to these threads and make their statements about why they are not "believers" (referencing one who believes in the God of the bible, and Jesus as the Savior) because of certain "facts" that they've reasoned out that Christians believe. But I've found these statements to be inconsistant to my understanding of being a Christian and what the bible states. An example of this that I see all of the time is the God "sends" people to hell. This is quite different from the fact that if there is a hell - that whoever ends up there made the decision to be there for themselves. What God does do, is welcome those who believe in Him (to the 3rd power for the literalists) to spend eternity with him in Heaven. THAT - the bible does say. And it is very rarely "mis-interpreted". So, I post when I see faulty logic, or misinterpretation, or misunderstanding of what anyone - believers or non-believers, say that the bible says, when I believe it to be something a little different. Otherwise, the only question I generally have when people say they don't believe the bible, is "Have you read it?" I'm often amaised by how many people who don't believe it haven't read it? As much as I am often amaised by people who think they believe it who haven't read it either. So personally, I really don't care if someone does not believe in the God of the bible - but I do care when they make claims about what I believe about it, and are wrong.

... And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

Note the logic here... God has called certain people according to what God wants to get done, and these people love God.

God then "works for the good" of these people. It is not that these people have acted well and have then accepted God: People are predestined to be "conformed" to Jesus.

These people are predestined to love God. It doesn't matter about their free will or whether they wanted to accept Jesus, or even if they believe in Jesus or not. God "predestined, called, justified and glorified" those who it chose, not those who chose God. Their choice was irrelevant:

btw you have a mail about the circumcision issue ... you may want to read that too

kidatheart70,

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"Either you believe and follow or you go to hell. Where's the free will? "
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You stated a choice (Either you believe and follow or you go to hell), a choice shows free will. Maybe you want more choices...sorry, Christianity only offers two.

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"If there really was a god, would he need all these "salesmen" to get the goods across? Or would he/she/it be able to reach us all without their methodology?
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You are right, God could easily give absolute proof of His existance to all mankind, but then you free will goes right out the window. What do you need free-will for, when all you have to do is look out the window and see God sitting on a throne? Also, God wants us to worship Him in faith. You don't need faith if you know God's phone number and address. But according to the Bible, God has given us evidence of His existance. We have a conscience. We have the Bible. We have the Universe itself. The amazing complexity of a single organism is evidence in itself. The incredibly small chance that science says the universe as we know it has of existing and the even smaller chance that we exist. Think about the size of the universe and then realize that we have no hard science that proves that the universe could have been created outside of a god.

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How can there be so many different "brands" of god and religion and any of it be believable? "
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The number of religions have nothing to do with the validity of any one. If I gave you 999,999 false statements and one truthful statement, the one truthful statement isn't negated by the 999,999 false statements. If you want to know if Christianity is the right religion, you are in luck. Jesus promised to reveal Himself to anyone who seek Him. Knowing that Jesus promised to prove His existance to you and knowing the consequences that Christianity promises to the unsaved, don't you owe it to yourself to verify first hand that Jesus doesn't exist? With those kinds of stakes, I wouldn't take anyone's word, I would want to prove it to myself.

If God predetermined them to be accepted, then they therefore behave in a way that makes them accepted, conformed to Jesus.

In Christianity you only get into Heaven through Jesus, but in Christianity as we have seen, you are only blessed with Jesus, and you only conform to Jesus, if God has chosen you to be.

Now you have quoted Romans as an example that God has decided who will be saved, and therefore there is no such thing as free will. However - have you considered who the audience is that this is addressed to? It was adressed to the Roman believers.
People who "heard the call" and responded. I have heard arguments on both side of this issue by the Calvanists (predestination) and others. If you were to go through the entire bible and state all of the passages that refer to "being called" and "justification", and listed them tegether - noting who said what - to whom, and under what circumstance, and then saw that all of the passages now drew the conclusion that there is no free will, you would have made your point.

But what you did is take one line of scripture - said by Paul, the Roman evangelist, speaking to the group of believers in the church of Rome, which he founded - who were unfamiliar with Jewish history, and using this single passage - drew a conclusion. I'm sorry to say - I'm not buying it. I've watched this cultic practice used enough over the years to lead people into interpreting the scriptures incorrectly that I just can't let it pass without pointing it out. If you want to back up your statement - do the study correctly and then come back here we'll take it from there.

Belushi,

You aren't understanding the verse. Please remember that you can always look at the Greek, so that you can understand the verse properly. I'll give you an example.

Romans 8:28
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And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
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"the called" is "kletos" in Greek. "kletos" literally means "invited". An invitation is something you can refuse. If mankind can reject the invitation, then that proves free will. Also, remember John 3:16...

John 3:16
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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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John 3:16 clearly show that ALL are invited, but Romans 8:28 is speaking only of those who "love God".

Maybe you are wondering what "[his] purpose" (God's purpose) is for inviting us. That is explained in 2 Peter 3:9

2 Peter 3:9
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The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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God's purpose in calling all mankind is so that "all should come to repentance", because God is "not willing that any should perish". That means that God doesn't want anyone to perish, which refutes Calvinism, which teaches that God desires to send some people to hell.

I hope this helps. I'm sorry it's so long, but it's a very deep subject.

If your choices determine if you go to Heaven, then the Bible is constantly saying that such choices were chosen by God. Not by you.

Specifically, clearly and definitely chosen by God. Your actions are not according to your will, but to God's, "according to his will and pleasure" and "according to his purpose".

Not your will or pleasure, not your purpose, and certainly not your choice!

God has chosen some people to be predestined and predetermined to be blessed with conformity to Jesus' will.

What of the others, then, who God has chosen not to conform to Jesus, who God has chosen not to be blameless and holy?

Presumably, they go on to make similar choices in life to those who are chosen, but they just don't get it right because God hasn't created them in that way. God has created them to fail.

This raises problems! If God is not just, unfair, what are you Christians to do with their own beliefs? How do you make sense of it, if God itself is not the all-loving God that they believe it might claim to be? God is lying, or Christians are deceived!

Paul saw these problems, too, and all the great Christian dialogues of history include long philosophical debates on the problem of the lack of free will and the resultant amorality of God itself. St Paul touches on such inquiry in Romans 9:

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac.

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

not by works but by him who calls - she was told "The older will serve the younger".

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" [Exodus 33:19]"

Romans 9:10-15 [NIV]


These are your scriptures ... Im doing what every other god loving/hating person does ... Im twisting them.

But Im questioning in a logical manner ...

Belushi,

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Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".
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This isn't talking about people, but rather nations of people. Jacob produced the Israelites, while his brother Esau produced the Edomites. By Jewish tradition, Esau and his decendants should have been more honored and loved than Jacob and his decendants, but God choose Jacob to be the father of His people. If you read about Esau, you will find that he was rich, powerful, had two wives, was healthy and he was Jacob's lord. If God hated Esau the man, it seems like Esau would have suffered in life, instead of doing so well.

Romans 9 is Paul breaking the bad news to fellow Jews. They were used to having a privilaged position among the world, they were God's choosen people. But then along comes Christianity and they wanted to know what their position was. Paul used Jacob and Esau as a comparison, he explained that while Christianity is a younger religion, it is God's choosen relgion. He told them that they have no right to be angry, they have no right to complain. God made the Jews his choosen people and then God made the Christians his choosen people.

The answer given as an answer by Paul makes no sense... it doesn't even address the question: Is God just? How can a just God predetermine people to sin, to be hated by God, and predetermine them not to 'conform to Jesus', and then judge those people for that predetermination that was beyond their control?

None of these are answered by Paul's quote from the Jewish Scriptures.

Thankfully Paul does not leave his attempted discussion there.

He goes on to affirm that free will does not affect our fate, and then he asks finally and directly: If our actions and nature are determined by God, how can god blame us for those actions?

The Biblical text runs:

It does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

For the Scripture says to Pharoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16]

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" "

Romans 9:16-19 [NIV]

And that is the clincher; the ultimate question. Paul has asked "Is God unjust?" for its denial of free will, for its disregard for what our choices and intentions are.

Paul now has a mortal present that same question. His answer is a shocker:

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Romans 9:20-21 [NIV]

The answer is: Tough! God is unjust, simply because it can be!

There is no justification, God makes some people "for noble use", chosen and predestined to do good works 'which God prepared in advance' 'according to his purpose'.

If you're not lucky enough to be created for a noble purpose, then you are for common use, relegated to hell and torment, a life without conformity to Christ, and not only is this unjust and painful situation created by God

Paul then says that you have no right to even raise a concern! You can't ask, "Is God Just?" or "How can God still blame us for our actions?"

Paul simply states that it doesn't matter, it is tough, God 'hardens who he wants to harden', those who were not noble are waste, space-filler, used, abused... and this unholy mess was all created by God, according to the Bible!

No free will is involved, no Human volition can change whether we were made for noble purposes to do pre-planned good acts, or whether we were made for common use, to be discarded and "punished" simply for not having been created right!

Belushi;

You wrote:

"btw you have a mail about the circumcision issue ... you may want to read that too"

Don't mean to be presumptuous, but was that writen to me?

Spider,
By being given those two choices the sum is still rule by fear. Not much of a choice. It's still governance by intimidation.

Kid wrote:
“By being given those two choices the sum is still rule by fear. Not much of a choice. It's still governance by intimidation.”

That’s precisely what it is. The book wasn’t inspired by any supernatural being. It’s crystal clear that it was written by male chauvinistic men who’s purpose was to instill a patriarchal rule for society. It ruled by fear and intimidation.

That’s what the book was originally all about. Newer stories were simply written by people who were familiar with the older stories. It became a self-propagating prophecy.

The mere fact that it is regional to the Middle East pretty much seals it. If a supreme being wanted to get a message to mankind and could inspire authors to write stories all that deity would have had to do is inspire authors world-wide to write the same things. The fact that these stores are so narrow in scope blatantly reveals their human origin. They even give God the same attributes of humanity (i.e. the ability to get angry, jealous, etc, etc, etc.).

Anyone who believes these stories must also believe that God isn’t all that differnet from a human being in character. He’s just as frail. He became angry and drown all of humanity, and then felt remorse and created a rainbow as a sign of covenant that he would never lose his temper again.

This is as silly as the Gods of Greek Mythology. And I make absolutely not apologies for my beliefs. This is indeed what I believe. The stories are absurdly ridiculous and clearly the invention of men.

Let’s wake up people! The dark ages are OVER!

I'm not saying there's no god. I'm saying put down the mythology books and come meet the real god! The universe itself! The entity that you are PART OF, and always WILL BE!

Eljay .... No

I sent a private mail to Spider and someone else as they called me out about something that I had seen about circumcision and I tried to prove that what I was saying is fact.

But they have not opened their mail yet

Belushi,

I have no email from you. There must be a mistake.

Ah .. interesting ....

Ill send it right now

God talks to everyone and everyone knows it.

Not everyone listens

even fewer enquire

But all are without excuse