Strange,all that slinging around of Marxist-Theories ,that never had a leg to stand on,and were a Main-Contributor to turn Detroit into Starnesville!

OK, what Marxist-theories? How did they mainly contribute in turning Detroit into Starnsville? What is the meaning of Starnsville? And how is this relevant to the topic at hand?

you need to do plenty more reading then!

Just a little taste of your task at hand!

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100227375/obamanomics-is-turning-america-into-detroit-ayn-rands-starnesville-come-to-life/

Then say Hello to Ivy Starnes for me!

http://thesnarkwhohuntsback.wordpress.com/favorite-passages-from-atlas-shrugged/the-story-of-the-twentieth-century-motor-company-atlas-shrugged-part-ii/

which one of them suits you best?

Thanks for answering one of the questions. I still don't see how it's relevant. Please elaborate.

Have you read Atlas Shrugged in its entirety?....

Yep! I have now. At the time that I sent the other post that website wasn't on his post. This is a prime example of why Communism on paper is awesome but in practice won't work. It only works in micro communities that are a closed system in of them selves.

So... how again does this apply to the situation? We already know that pure communism doesn't work for governments. We also know that the trickle down theory doesn't work, that was proven during FDR's administration aka the great depression.

This also doesn't change the fact that people aren't being paid well enough for the jobs they do. How should we as a society fix that?

How do think we as a society should help the helpless?

http://separatestateandtheeconomy.com/2013/07/25/statism-altruism-and-pragmatism-the-diseases-that-killed-detroit/

Statism, Altruism, and Pragmatism – The Diseases That Killed Detroit
5

July 25, 2013 by Anders Ingemarson

“There are two kinds of need involved in this process: the need of the group making demands, which is openly proclaimed and serves as cover for another need, which is never mentioned—the need of the power-seekers, who require a group of dependent favor-recipients in order to rise to power. Altruism feeds the first need, statism feeds the second, Pragmatism blinds everyone—including victims and profiteers—not merely to the deadly nature of the process, but even to the fact that a process is going on.”

Ayn Rand, from “A Preview” in The Ayn Rand Letter, 1972

In the wake of the Detroit bankruptcy filing we’ve seen an abundance of parallels drawn between that plighted city and our country as a whole. Columnists have chronicled its path from fame to shame, warning us that the entire country is on the same trajectory. They have pointed out how corruption, mismanagement, race riots, high taxes, and unsustainable entitlement commitments have driven out everybody who can afford to get away, individuals and corporations. Only power-lusters and their armies of “needies” are left to fight over the scraps looted from the ever-shrinking base of productive individuals.

But this only identifies symptoms. In the articles I’ve come across, nobody has fully addressed how this could happen in the first place. Daniel Hannan comes closest in blaming Detroit’s destruction on Statism of the Socialist kind and on the lack of Capitalism. This is definitely part of the diagnosis, but the question remains: How does a city that was once the envy of the world implode in front of our eyes without that any sustainable, corrective action is being taken? It is one thing for a community to perish in a catastrophic event like a flood, hurricane, earthquake or fire, taking everybody by surprise. But here we’re faced with a slow, manmade decline over a period of decades.

If we want to prevent the fate of Detroit from being repeated on a national scale, we have to look beyond the symptoms: we have to diagnose the underlying diseases and prescribe the right remedies. We’re faced with a number of serious conditions, so stay with me as we examine the patient.

Daniel Hannan does identify the first disease, Statism, the political theory which holds that our lives and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, the nation, the city of Detroit—and that the state may dispose of us in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own collective good.

Past citizens of Detroit left as conditions worsened. As the statists grab more and more power nationally, leaving is not an attractive option as most other countries are even further down the road to their own Detroits.

No, our best plan of treatment is to stay and fight Statism with Individualism, the only cure that regards us as independent, sovereign entities who possess the inalienable right to our own life.

Ask yourself how far the Detroit power-seekers would have got with a citizenry committed to protecting the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness of all its inhabitants without regard to what groups they may belong to.

Our examination reveals that the patient is riddled with a second disease, Altruism, the “A” in the ABC of Old World Morality. As indicated in the initial quote from Ayn Rand, Altruism claims the moral high ground for the needy, the have-nots. Our Detroit Petri dish reveals a lethal mix: city employees, the poor, the illiterate, the homeless, African-Americans, UAW members and others. Hiding behind Altruist slogans, they righteously demand to be supported by the self-sufficient, by the haves. The victims are rendered defenseless when the statist power-seekers come knocking on behalf of their needy constituents. They may feebly protest the degree of wealth they are asked to give up but they don’t question the principle, as they as well are infected by Altruism, believing that morally need comes before greed.

Let’s cure the patient with a large dose of rational self-interest (also sold as rational selfishness and rational Egoism), which prescribes that each man’s primary moral obligation is to achieve his own welfare, while respecting the same moral obligation in his fellow men. Absent Altruism, the few who are truly needy, in Detroit and across America, will find an abundance of voluntary support from benevolent individuals with resources to spare.

Finally, we diagnose a third disease, Pragmatism, a cancer with Progressive metastases. It dooms us to try to solve problems with concrete bound solutions disconnected from fundamental principles. It disables our ability to connect the dots and leads us to repeat the same mistakes over and over again like imbeciles: “It didn’t work yesterday, but let’s try again because it may magically work tomorrow!” Paraphrasing Ayn Rand “Pragmatism blinds us to the process of destruction that’s been going on in Detroit and in America for half a century and more, and even to the fact that a process is going on.”

“Chemo” consists of learning to think in principles, to beware of the Progressive in you. As the cancer goes in remission, we learn to establish a vision that guides our every action, preventing us from repeating the same mistakes in absurdum.

Imagine the elected officials of Detroit when first facing a budget deficit saying “This doesn’t work. Let’s embark on a principled path based on a vision of respecting the individual rights of all citizens. Let’s reject the altruistic demands of our statist pressure groups.” Call me a dreamer, but I think the city would have remained the envy of the world until this day.

Three diseases that will require long treatment. No doubt a daunting task. If you don’t know where to start, I suggest promoting SEPARATE! as a first step. It won’t save Detroit, but it prescribes the medicine that will cure the country.

so,you have READ it,but haven't learned!

Fix: Government to GTFOtheWay!

your thinking is entirely Collectivist!

you need to read up quite a bit more on Capitalism,that perfunctorilly browse through Atlas Shrugged!

BTW:"Speedreader?"

Recently, while I was working in the flower beds in the front yard, my neighbors stopped to chat as they returned home from walking their dog. During our friendly conversation, I asked their little girl what she wanted to be when she grows up. She said she wanted to be President some day.

Both of her parents, liberal Democrats, were standing there, so I asked her,If you were President what would be the first thing you would do? She replied,I'd give food and houses to all the homeless people.

Her parents beamed with pride!

Wow,what a worthy goal! I said. But you don't have to wait until you're President to do that! I told her.

What do you mean? she replied.

So I told her, You can come over to my house and mow the lawn, pull weeds, and trim my hedge, and I'll pay you $50. Then you can go over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out and give him the $50 to use toward food and a new house.

She thought that over for a few seconds, then she looked me straight in the eye and asked, Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and do the work, and you can just pay him the $50?

I said,Welcome to the Libertarian Party. Her parents aren't speaking to me anymore.

(Not mine, ripped from another page)

We have just concluded the 5th fiscal year since President Obama took office. During those five years, the federal government has spent a total $3.7 trillion on approximately 80 different means-tested poverty and welfare programs. The common feature of means-tested assistance programs is that they are graduated based on a persons income and, in contrast to programs like Social Security or Medicare, they are a free benefit and not paid into by the recipient," says the minority side of the Senate Budget Committee.

"The enormous sum spent on means-tested assistance is nearly five times greater than the combined amount spent on NASA, education, and all federal transportation projects over that time. ($3.7 trillion is not even the entire amount spent on federal poverty support, as states contribute more than $200 billion each year to this federal nexus primarily in the form of free low-income health care.)

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/report-us-spent-37-trillion-welfare-over-last-5-years_764582.html

What are you all yelping about?

Obviously you don't understand what capitalism is. Furthermore, as atlas is fictional as in never happened, it can't be used to purports that capitalism is right. Keep in mind that the other article assumes that it's because of socialism that Detroit is the way it is now.

Being a blatantly opinionated article doesn't mean it's factual or correct.

Since the concept that "Detroit is the way it is now is because of socialism" isn't true, because Detroit fell into bankruptcy due to the fall of the automotive industry and not the other way around, the assumption that the government should get the frak out because of this is invalid.

As for the fact that this still doesn't resolve the issue of people not getting paid enough, How does it pertain to this? How do you intend on solving this?

I would like constructive Ideas people. This just tell me what not to do. I.E. don't be communist.

Either way if you aren't able to listen to reason. I can't stop you. However I can stop listening to you.

In the USA, secular governments are already helping the helpless, along with numerous individuals and charities.

yes they do. It's an excellent example of socialistic activity. I love the idea. I just feel it isn't enough. That is my opinion and I'm not going to argue it as fact since I feel you have a valid point.

Should we increase the monetary gains of charities and not for profit? Will this solve the problem of the poor not making enough?

To do your part, get a job. On payday, take 2/3 of what you make and give it to a homeless family.

Or, give it to a liberal who claims they are CAPABLE of contributing and just won't.

Stating, welfare pays better than a job.

I did some charity work last night in Mejico. I donated 50 pesos to a fine looking, poor hooker.

Well I'm glad that you are able to give so much to the needy 2/3. That's very gracious of you. Do you do that all the time?

You asked for ideas YOU could do to help poor folks.

That suggestion to you, for you to do;

You, get a job. On payday, take 2/3 of what you make and give it to a homeless family.

Or, give it to a liberal who claims they are CAPABLE of contributing and just won't.

A great deal is being done to help the poor in america.

One of the keys things which is NOT being done adequately is requiring accountability.

Many, many poor people struggle with substance abuse. Giving them aid without requiring that they clean up their substance abuse issues is just enabling them.

This is one of the best posts in this thread.

There is a massive cultural problem with many people, which hurts poor people worst than most. First you have to learn to manage yourself, and manage your money. If you do, you can live happily off of very little money. If you don't, even large amounts of 'help' will leave you back where you started, after you've wasted all your money.

Cool. Its always great to bring a conversation about poverty over to what is REALLY necessary.

When you have enough to survive physically, the problem of poverty really becomes a problem of the mind. Some might say its a spiritual problem. Most poor people in the USA have more than enough to survive physically.