Topic: quantom entanglement... faster than light?
Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/17/13 12:47 PM


What was the question again?laugh :wink:

No, seriously, I know the answer but it involves the non existence of spacetime and the fact that light has no speed, we just think it does.



so,how come our Radio-Communications,and anything else depending the Speed Of Light works?
In the Formula to convert Frequency to Wavelength,the Speed of Light figures prominently!

http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/communications/2-how-are-frequency-and-wavelength-related.html

s1owhand's photo
Sun 03/17/13 12:47 PM


Actually the speed of light is 299,792,458 m/sec. It is not hard
to measure and spacetime exists.

Entangled photons exist too and their polarizations are linked
but they do not communicate so there is no contradiction with the
speed of light.

Once they are entangled, they have opposite polarizations that is
all. It is like if you take a penny and press it into some clay.
The clay retains a negative image of the penny showing Lincoln's
head. If you take the clay to New York and the penny to Los
Angeles the clay will still have a negative image of the penny.

Except it is with photons.

laugh


the only difference is that the clay doesn't move when the penny moves... the protons do


it does not matter how the photons or particles are moving...
the two entities are related by quantum mechanics and when you
make a measurement of the polarization of one of them you make
a measurement of the polarization of both of them.

this is essentially different from everyday experience but there
are a lot of things about quantum mechanics which are quite different
from our usual experience.

nonetheless...going back to the analogy with the clay...

if you don't know which one is clay and which one is copper then
when you measure one of them and it is found to be convex then the
other one is automatically concave since they are formed together
and their states are forever connected...as is the case with the
photons...

laugh

Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/17/13 12:48 PM

Proof, even if it came from Albert Einstein, (who knows what I am saying is true,) would not help you to understand.

The proof is there in Quantum mechanics, but very few people can grasp what that says about reality.




actually,what you are using is Quantum-Mysticism,not Quantum-Mechanics!

no photo
Sun 03/17/13 12:52 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 03/17/13 12:56 PM
Light has no speed so you can say that the speed of light is zero. Light is the constant.

Everything is relative but you have to have something that is constant. Everything is frequency and vibration, so you might consider that "matter" (what we call matter) is on the negative side of the frequency (speed) of light.

Therefore, it appears to us that light has a speed because we measure it in relation to us.

In order to measure anything you must have a constant. Light is the constant.

Therefore, you need to measure the frequency or speed of everything else in relation to light.


no photo
Sun 03/17/13 12:54 PM


Proof, even if it came from Albert Einstein, (who knows what I am saying is true,) would not help you to understand.

The proof is there in Quantum mechanics, but very few people can grasp what that says about reality.




actually,what you are using is Quantum-Mysticism,not Quantum-Mechanics!


Wrong. I'm talking about quantum mechanics and the "spooky action at a distance" scientific experiments.

Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/17/13 12:55 PM
Edited by Conrad_73 on Sun 03/17/13 12:57 PM

Light has no speed so you can say that the speed of light is zero. Light is the constant.

If everything is relative but you have to have something that is constant. Everything is frequency and vibration, so you might consider that matter is on the negative side of the frequency (speed) of light.

Therefore, it appears to us that light has a speed because we measure it in relation to us.

In order to measure anything you must have a constant. Light is the constant.

Therefore, you need to measure the frequency or speed of everything else in relation to light.


yep,a Constant of about 300'000km/sec on this Earth!
And that is the number used in every computation be it Energy or Electromagnetic Radiation Wavelength!
Without that 300'000km/sec Constant you couldn't do any of those computations!

But since you claim that Light has no Velocity,one would have to use Zero as the Constant!

no photo
Sun 03/17/13 12:59 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 03/17/13 12:59 PM


Light has no speed so you can say that the speed of light is zero. Light is the constant.

If everything is relative but you have to have something that is constant. Everything is frequency and vibration, so you might consider that matter is on the negative side of the frequency (speed) of light.

Therefore, it appears to us that light has a speed because we measure it in relation to us.

In order to measure anything you must have a constant. Light is the constant.

Therefore, you need to measure the frequency or speed of everything else in relation to light.


yep,a Constant of about 300'000km/sec on this Earth!
And that is the number used in every computation be it Energy or Electromagnetic Radiation Wavelength!
Without that 300'000km/sec Constant you couldn't do any of those computations!


So if light is the constant, why do you assume that is has speed? Speed in relation to what?

Because scientists measure things in relation to THEM, or to "matter."




Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/17/13 01:14 PM
Edited by Conrad_73 on Sun 03/17/13 01:16 PM
E=MC2
can't get around those cussed 300'000km/sec!
laugh

Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/17/13 01:32 PM





Speed of Light in Action!

Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/17/13 01:34 PM

How fast do quantum interactions happen? Faster than light, 10,000 times faster.

That's what a team of physicists led by Juan Yin at the University of Science and Technology of China in Shanghai found in an experiment involving entangled photons, or photons that remain intimately connected, even when separated by vast distances.They wanted to see what would happen if you tried assigning a speed to what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance."

They didn't find anything unexpected, but that wasn't the point: in physics, sometimes it's good to be sure. The group published their work on the ArXiv.org, a preprint server for physics papers.



Quantum physicists have long known that after two particles — photons, for example — interact, they sometimes become "entangled." This kind of experiment has been repeated many times, and involves taking two entangled photons and sending them to different places. Perhaps photon A goes to Los Angeles and photon B goes to Boston.

When photon A is observed, it has a certain polarization, perhaps "up." The other photon in Boston is always in the opposite polarization, "down." No matter what measurement is made of photon A, photon B will always be opposite. It is impossible to tell what the polarization will be before you measure it, but the entangled photons always seem to "know" the right state to be in, instantaneously. [Twisted Physics: 7 Mind-Blowing Findings]

As Chad Orzel, assistant professor of physics at Union College, explained, "It's as though you sent two cards to two different addresses. One might be the jack of diamonds and the other the ace of hearts. When you get the card at one address you know which one went to the other. Quantum mechanics is weird because until you open the envelope, saying which card it is doesn't have any meaning; it could be either one."

Speed of quantum interaction

This is what Albert Einstein called "spooky action at a distance." And the correlation between the photons' states seems to happen instantaneously. But what does "instantaneous" really mean? That's part of what the Chinese team wanted to look at.

So the researchers entangled two photons and sent them to two different stations about 10 miles (16 kilometers) apart. In their ArXiv paper, the scientists said that previous experiments had "locality loopholes," which is another way of saying that it's possible to explain the link between photons with something other than the "action at a distance."

The group measured the state of one photon and timed how long the entangled state took to show up in the other. They found that the slowest possible speed for quantum interactions is 10,000 times the speed of light — assuming your experiment is moving relatively slowly, at least relative to light beams.

Whereas the result may sound like a way to send faster-than-light messages, it isn't, really, because you can't know the state of the entangled photon pair before it's measured; so there's no way to control it and make the photon at the other end take on certain states and use it like a Morse code telegraph. [10 Implications of Faster-Than-Light Travel]

This type of experiment has been done before, notably by a European team, in 2008. So why do it again? Many physics experiments are performed to check more closely the values of constants used in equations, for instance, which enable more precise measurements in other areas.

Orzel said that even if it turned out that there was some small amount of time it takes for the state of a photon to change (meaning it's not instantaneous), it isn't clear that lag would mean much for quantum physics generally. That's because there are several interpretations for why quantum phenomena happen the way they do, and all explain the experimental results equally well. Physicists aren't even certain that there's an experiment one could do to tell the difference.

He added that it is extremely unlikely that anyone will ever get an "exact" value for the speed of such quantum interactions, and, in fact, modern physics prohibits that kind of finding in principle. But it is useful to see what the limits are — to clarify what we mean when we say "instantaneous."

"There's a certain strain of physics that people that will say it has to be instantaneous – in fact, if it is faster than light it must be instantaneous," Orzel said. "So if you can put a limit on it that is kind of cool."


Might be connected through a Wormhole,some hyper-Dimensional Gateway!

no photo
Sun 03/17/13 01:59 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 03/17/13 02:08 PM




Proof, even if it came from Albert Einstein, (who knows what I am saying is true,) would not help you to understand.

The proof is there in Quantum mechanics, but very few people can grasp what that says about reality.




in your Universe,nothing Electrical would work!
Still,you haven't provided any proof ,only some assertions!


They are not assertions.

Like I said, the proof is in the quantum mechanics. "Spooky action at a distance."


which has nothing to do with the Speed of Light!
According to you,everything can work in the absence of the Speed of Light,yet electrical engineering proves that isn't so!



You are still hung up on the idea that light has a speed.

Okay....Speed in relation to what?


no photo
Sun 03/17/13 02:01 PM


Light has no speed so you can say that the speed of light is zero. Light is the constant.

If everything is relative but you have to have something that is constant. Everything is frequency and vibration, so you might consider that matter is on the negative side of the frequency (speed) of light.

Therefore, it appears to us that light has a speed because we measure it in relation to us.

In order to measure anything you must have a constant. Light is the constant.

Therefore, you need to measure the frequency or speed of everything else in relation to light.


yep,a Constant of about 300'000km/sec on this Earth!
And that is the number used in every computation be it Energy or Electromagnetic Radiation Wavelength!
Without that 300'000km/sec Constant you couldn't do any of those computations!

But since you claim that Light has no Velocity,one would have to use Zero as the Constant!



There is no such thing as nothing or zero.


Dodo_David's photo
Sun 03/17/13 02:34 PM
Is Jeanniebean suggesting that light does not move at all?

In order for light to have zero speed, it would have to be sitting still. If that were the case, then nobody would be able to see.

We see objects because light strikes the objects and is reflected back in our direction. When that reflected light reaches the retinas in our eyes, the retinas convert the reflected light into impulses that allow our brains to see the objected that reflected the light.

The movement of light also provides us with a visual Doppler effect.

As a form of electromagnetic energy, light definitely has speed.

Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/17/13 02:39 PM



Light has no speed so you can say that the speed of light is zero. Light is the constant.

If everything is relative but you have to have something that is constant. Everything is frequency and vibration, so you might consider that matter is on the negative side of the frequency (speed) of light.

Therefore, it appears to us that light has a speed because we measure it in relation to us.

In order to measure anything you must have a constant. Light is the constant.

Therefore, you need to measure the frequency or speed of everything else in relation to light.


yep,a Constant of about 300'000km/sec on this Earth!
And that is the number used in every computation be it Energy or Electromagnetic Radiation Wavelength!
Without that 300'000km/sec Constant you couldn't do any of those computations!

But since you claim that Light has no Velocity,one would have to use Zero as the Constant!



There is no such thing as nothing or zero.


it either moves at 300'00km/sec,or it moves at Zero Speed!
You can't have it both ways!

Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/17/13 02:51 PM
Heck,I got it now!
Light is at rest at 300'000km/sec!laugh

no photo
Sun 03/17/13 03:02 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 03/17/13 03:06 PM




Light has no speed so you can say that the speed of light is zero. Light is the constant.

If everything is relative but you have to have something that is constant. Everything is frequency and vibration, so you might consider that matter is on the negative side of the frequency (speed) of light.

Therefore, it appears to us that light has a speed because we measure it in relation to us.

In order to measure anything you must have a constant. Light is the constant.

Therefore, you need to measure the frequency or speed of everything else in relation to light.


yep,a Constant of about 300'000km/sec on this Earth!
And that is the number used in every computation be it Energy or Electromagnetic Radiation Wavelength!
Without that 300'000km/sec Constant you couldn't do any of those computations!

But since you claim that Light has no Velocity,one would have to use Zero as the Constant!



There is no such thing as nothing or zero.


it either moves at 300'00km/sec,or it moves at Zero Speed!
You can't have it both ways!


When you state it moves at 300'00km/sec you are assuming that time (and space) actually exist.

If you want a premise to assume that time and space and matter actually exist, then I have no argument with your reasoning or calculations.

What I am saying is that time (spacetime) and matter do not actually exist.

Using that premise, none of your arguments even apply.



no photo
Sun 03/17/13 03:16 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 03/17/13 03:17 PM
Back to the O.P.

..... to clarify what we mean when we say "instantaneous."

I think scientists are getting too obsessed with measuring things when they spend their time trying to define what "instantaneous" means where "spooky action at a distance" is concerned.

Hey ... it means NOW!

Can you define "Now?"

no photo
Sun 03/17/13 03:26 PM
What bugs scientists is that they don't understand "spooky action at a distance" in relation to their rule about the speed of light since according to their scientific laws, the speed of light is the upper limit beyond which nothing can travel.

They get freaked out when something appears to have broken this sacred law of physics.

When they discover a particle that seems to transmit a message instantaneously over a distance they mistakenly think that there is something "traveling" from one place to another (faster than light) when it is not. The two particles are not two separate things sending messages, they are two parts of ONE THING. Once they become 'entangled' they are one thing, not two. They are connected.






Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/17/13 03:31 PM



What was the question again?laugh :wink:

No, seriously, I know the answer but it involves the non existence of spacetime and the fact that light has no speed, we just think it does.



so,how come our Radio-Communications,and anything else depending the Speed Of Light works?
In the Formula to convert Frequency to Wavelength,the Speed of Light figures prominently!

http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/communications/2-how-are-frequency-and-wavelength-related.html


Conrad_73's photo
Sun 03/17/13 03:32 PM
Edited by Conrad_73 on Sun 03/17/13 03:44 PM





Light has no speed so you can say that the speed of light is zero. Light is the constant.

If everything is relative but you have to have something that is constant. Everything is frequency and vibration, so you might consider that matter is on the negative side of the frequency (speed) of light.

Therefore, it appears to us that light has a speed because we measure it in relation to us.

In order to measure anything you must have a constant. Light is the constant.

Therefore, you need to measure the frequency or speed of everything else in relation to light.


yep,a Constant of about 300'000km/sec on this Earth!
And that is the number used in every computation be it Energy or Electromagnetic Radiation Wavelength!
Without that 300'000km/sec Constant you couldn't do any of those computations!

But since you claim that Light has no Velocity,one would have to use Zero as the Constant!



There is no such thing as nothing or zero.


it either moves at 300'00km/sec,or it moves at Zero Speed!
You can't have it both ways!


When you state it moves at 300'00km/sec you are assuming that time (and space) actually exist.

If you want a premise to assume that time and space and matter actually exist, then I have no argument with your reasoning or calculations.

What I am saying is that time (spacetime) and matter do not actually exist.

Using that premise, none of your arguments even apply.



and your proof is?

and would you care to explain how the Electromagnetic Spectrum works without the Speed of Light?
Every Computation used the Speed of Light(300'000km/sec) as a constant in the Equations,a thing that,according to you does not exist!
Come on!
Bring some proof of your assertions,instead making assertions to prove your previous assertions!

And,according to you,you also do not exist!