http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/3/181336.shtml

North American Union: Remaking Three Nations
Diane Alden
Tuesday, July 4, 2006

OLD Story, Opinion piece, no AP.........

So here is the blunt of it 'red'.

Most every thought, notion, angle, concern and preoccupation expressed by you and others on this topic, are straight out of the John Birch Society (and associate collaborating clones) 'bible'. The whole concept of 'NAU' is their fabrication. So are a whole bunch of other exagerations and down right delusional catastrophic scenarios around that subject.

I asked you for your 'fresh' take, because I'd feel it worthwhile to address YOUR take. But I will not address the one track mind JBS steam rolling propaganda. That's just me though. I don't suggest JBS and followers don't have a right to their convictions, along with their conspiracy industry, but it's just not my bag.

Do I give CRF or SPP a clean bill of health, absolutely not. Given the current leader of the White House, nothing gets a clean bill of health. He will make a mess of eveything he touches.

But approaching the critique of this particular subject matter from the JBS questionable founding principles, and marginal credibility, simply opens up a pandoras box of confusion, xenophopic tendencies, and catastrophic scenarios, that are way beyond my limited capacities to help sort out.
(By JBS, I also include a myriad other collaborators and associative cohorts (Global Research, Human Events, etc.), giving the impression of a larger base sharing similar concerns and preoccupations)

Among other instilled fears and conspiracies, JBS has built a veritable church around the fear for the erosion of US Sovereignt and attacks to its Constitution, fear of anything to do with other nations (other than commercial exploitation), and complete evil fear of immigration, especially from south of the border!!!

Do I think these aren't serious issues?!?!? To the contratry.

But JBS and cohorts, with their one track fear and sensationalistic conspiracy circus act, do not represnt a serious filter or context to seriously deal with those issues.

That is why I asked your preoccupations 'red'. And believe me, while I think you are sincere when you say losing your sovereignty is one of them, I think such serious preoccupation deserves better than JBS as backup.


With all due respect to you 'red'.

Re: Misleading, benign tidbits of fluff with up-beat delivery -
I'm reminded of Professor Wilson Bryan Key's account of days as a presidential speechwriter - He was writing one for Ike, and had to
submit it for approval. Three or four times, he was told to fuzzy it up and blur detail to the point where it said almost nothing of substance. It proved one of his most well recieved speeches because of the delivery! It's show biz that motivates Americans
and it seems whoever has enough wedge to throw at favourable media
coverage wins.

Re: Misleading, benign tidbits of fluff with up-beat delivery -
I'm reminded of Professor Wilson Bryan Key's account of days as a presidential speechwriter - He was writing one for Ike, and had to
submit it for approval. Three or four times, he was told to fuzzy it up and blur detail to the point where it said almost nothing of substance. It proved one of his most well recieved speeches because of the delivery! It's show biz that motivates Americans
and it seems whoever has enough wedge to throw at favourable media
coverage wins. The public is hypnotised and massaged. The age of instant information seems more like the birth of the printing press with it's stranglehold on the truth..

(Sorry - I'm a complete wombat on the computer..)

Redy, I really dont want to do this anymore. I respect you and this could get uglier and uglier.
I refuse to do it! Sorry!

so what?
now my homeboys will be the same as North American and Canadians?
that will be absolutely hillarious for me
the next question would be if that is true is it worth it all the fight that anti immigrants have nowadays?
we never know for whom do we work
lol

TLW, ...........

hey amigo
como estas?

Im proud of the Mexicans! They are fighting their currupt government!! could cinco de mayo become a past slogan, made obsolete by a new revolution?????

Have you seen that?

no, i have not
what i know is that mexico's government is as corrupted as any government in Latin America. Ecuador included.

Ok then - lets discuss one thing at a time. The SPP. Try this link, I don't think you'll find it conspiracy oriented.

http://www.spp.gov/factsheet.asp?dName=fact_sheets

Please inform me, because I don't get it? First of all, when were we, the American population ever informed on a mass media basis.

Second, what exactly, in your opinion is this all about.
As for me, I'm not sure why we need a council with specific member, and duties and pay, to determine the best to deal with Influenza Pandemics? The only recent pandemic or epidemic has been AIDS, but that is somehow not included in the script.
And as far as providing assistance and relief for natural or man-disasters, how is having this tribunal any more efficient than our current abilities? (Even though we borrowed and continue to borrow billions for such things), why do we want to borrow more to add two other countries to a required list of nations to help?

And Energy - what the heck is that all about? Is there some new source of energy that behooves us all to develop it together?

Smart secure borders - in what way?

And read this:
The Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America
Key Accomplishments since June 2005

I would be most happy if you could show me exactly how and where the benefits and improvements have shown themselves.

For every line I read in the SPP documentation I can't help thinking we are being dupped somehow. Is it just because I feel that the people in these countries had no say in this matter, or am I actually seeing money being poured into something that is meant to benefit the influential international corporate holdings of those already financially in power?

So what's your take? Don't just tell me we(all three countries) are benefiting, show me how, cos I just don't see it.

JBS!!!!!!!!!!!! JBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????? wtf!!!!

that's like jumping from the fryng pan into the fire!!!!!!!!!!!



idon't know what all this is about but ...

let's keep it simple...revolution!!!!!!

IT'S THE LAW

1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT
options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property.
That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no waving a foreign flag, no political organizing, no "badmouthing" our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be hunted down and sent straight to jail.

Harsh, you say ?...

The above laws happen to be the immigration laws of

" MEXICO"
Bigsexy..P.S.Why cant we do this????

The SPP initiatives are essentially the response of the Bush admin. to the 9/11 wake-up call. The USA as a country is NOT an isolated, and ‘distance’ protected ISLAND in the world. The sooner the US realizes that, the better. To respond UNILATERALLY, to the … ‘you’re not alone in the world’… message of 9/11, would have been an oxymoron. To seek out, and to offer a sincere reach to understand and collaborate in this transformed world of the 21st century, IS NOT, IN ITSELF, A BAD EVOLUTION OF THINGS, and something we should immediately declare 'a new conspiracy'.

"In a rapidly changing world, we must develop new avenues of cooperation that will make our open societies safer and more secure, our businesses more competitive, and our economies more resilient."

Sure you can invent and read a hidden meaning in everything. But the intent of the sceptics is downright paranoïd.
We CAN’T go back to the 19th century. As for the 20th century, it was a simple transition period where all of us got a chance to learn and adapt to a more global and interconnected WORLD.

The Insular vision and mentality of the world, where communities and whole countries are a sort of central Castle perched high on its motte, and protected by its water trenches, in spite of JBS and followers' efforts to keep us there, are an antiquated and retrograde vision and mentality through which the 21st century cannot be addressed.

However much we may disagree with the ‘bushy’ undemocratic, covert, devious and famously paternalistic style of cheating the US population of its ‘WE THE PEOPLE’ say in most matters addressed by his administration, ... HE has NOTHING to do with the evolution of the globalization of the planet, and our imperative duty and responsibility to help shape it, and adapt to it.

However imperfectly, seeking ways of collaborating; of building bridges together rather than against each other; of actively seeking out the welfare of others, of other nations (foes ad friends alike) is very much the as of yet, unanswered challenge of this current period of ‘history in the making’.

I for one do not know if we will win or lose the race towads ONE WORLD of Sovereign Nations (no different than sovereign individuals making up the ONE human race). But I’m absolutely convinced that if we keep consciously or unconsciously standing for a xenophobic, paranoid, cynical and retrograde perspective of the past, we will fail miserably as a ‘class’, in writing any form of progress for this period of human history.


Posed a different way, how do we handle security (health hazards and terrorism) of the inescapable and growing traffic of commercial goods and humans across our sovereign borders. How do we conciliate security and commerce. How do we conciliate commerce and competitiveness, China and India are compelling reality reminders, … and protectionism isn’t at all the answer. We are condemned to collaborate, and share this planet with others. We may criticize the manner ‘veraciously’, I for one do! But we must share the ‘what so’ of the planet we live in TODAY, and offer constructive and innovative ways of co-habitation, co-existence and prospering together. We can’t go back to the middle-ages and build a MOTTE AND WALL between the US, Mexico and the rest of the world!!! Nor return human beings ‘to sender’!!! Those human beings are in the US because the US wants, and needs them here. Fill the gap for yourselves, and move on!!! Find ways of improving on the model, of making the model work, but forget erasing the model!!!

You are sovereign, and nothing in the cards suggest that your sovereignty is in imminent danger. Forget about losing your sovereignty!!! Invest instead some thought in asking yourselves what there is to build , together with the rest of the world, with this sovereignty of yours!!!

Point by point as suggested by our host:

Starting premise:

"In a rapidly changing world, we must develop new avenues of cooperation that will make our open societies safer and more secure, our businesses more competitive, and our economies more resilient."

Through the SPP, the United States, Canada, and Mexico seek to:


SPP point #1:


Establish a cooperative approach to advance our common security and prosperity.

Develop a common security strategy to further secure North America, focusing on:

• Securing North America from external threats;

• Preventing and responding to threats within North America;

and

• Streamlining the secure and efficient movement of legitimate and low-risk traffic across our shared borders.

oops,,,,,
I almost forgot that we have this disagreement!
It is an easy thing to say, globalize, if you stand to be a beneficiary!
The US and "we the people" do mot stand to be beneficiaries of that terrible word!

Just look at China, look at Mattel, look at the people who recently lost pets. America had laws, checks and balances, rigid inspection processes and requirements that other countries dont.
The all out charge of globalization is putting our children's lives at stake, killing our pets, and making us, "we the people," to lose jobs and our quality of life.

Do we continue to charge forward without protecting ourselves and our lifestyles? What travesty is next, a terrorist or accidental poisoning or incurable disease. And if you cant see sending human beings, marked return to sender, back to where they came from. Then you wouldn't want to see me get my way!

No globalization is not such a bad dream, but the rest of the globe needs to catch up before "we the people" rush haphazardly towards that goal. Why should we sacrifice for their errors and short comings? The only Americans I can see that benefit from the concept of globalization are the corporations. They get cheap slave labor that comes as not only a cost to "we the people," but also to the cost of "they the people."

Canada and the US have always shared common goals. Their lifestyles and ours are very similar, we are friends and always will be!

Mexico, are we supposed to take on all their troubles? The government coruption, the poor infrastructure, and over population? Or India, China, or the hundreds of other countries in the world that have not looked towards the future until its too late. Are we to sacrifice our lifestyles for their ignorance? Would our involvement even help them? I honestly doubt it, Voil!

We have the capability to survive. It sounds cold, but let them pull their own ****s from the mud, first, before we head off into the dream world of globilazation.

In five years, if we had the right leadership, we could be completely energy independent and need nothing from the world. I say get to work on that, seal our borders, and let the rest of the world solve their own **** holes!
Radical, extreme, yes, but if we dont I feel we will just slow down the enivitable for the rest of the world and seal our fate to fail with theirs.

Better to be cold and survive than to let your heart bleed out all over the world and still die!!!

Go ahead, chew my leg call me satan if you want. Just dont cry when globilazation leads to the fall of "we the people!!"

Come on,,,,
Is noone to give me a hard time over this?

Where is invisible and alex?,,,,,
Gypsy,,,
I knew I shouldnt have said good things about Canada!!!!

Fanta,

First of all you and I will never have any fundamental disagreements, only fun and exciting debates. You take one side of the argument, and I take the other, and at half-time, we both switch sides!!! :)

No one said figuring out the challenges of our times would be easy. And some of the 'globalizers' scheme are downright stupid!!! I'm much more on the side of activists barking and biting at the big biz and politicians cohoots!!!

But that being said, the US, Canada and Europe for that matter have long sealed their fate with respect to 'real' independence.

However much we would all want to keep believing in this world of 'operating' independent and autosufficient nations, 100 years of a heavy consumer goods nation, and the amount of shared national debts, and hunger to keep the bankers happy, have brought an end to effective independence.

Your future is far more in the hands of international banks than it is in the hands of your governement. That is not fantasy. That is fact. Do a quick check on whom owns your horrendous national debt.

Make it on our own?!?!? With these massive 'IOU's, how do you suggest doing a 'kcuf you' to the rest of the world and close the candy shop?!?!?


You wrote:
"... In five years, if we had the right leadership, we could be completely energy independent and need nothing from the world. I say get to work on that, seal our borders, and let the rest of the world solve their own **** holes!..."

Admit it Fanta!!! That's major psychadelic wishful yellow brick road! How do you make that happen???

Energy self-sufficiency alone is more of a social dilemma than it is a technical or economic challenge!!!

Your 'WE THE PEOPLE' consider it a constitutional right to drive their SUV's, and your 'WE OWN THE PEOPLE' BIG CORPS AND BANKS, will make sure they keep driving them.
Electrical, hydrogen, and other alternative sources!!?!?! Forget it!!! Won't happen in our life time.

US runs on oil. They need OIL, and don't have enough. Did you know that 100% of our voluminous oil production in Canada (of course you did), is exclusively shipped south?!!?! Not a barrel of crude for us in Canada! We buy it all back from US and other supplying nations. Now if that isn't BIG brotherly love, I don't know what is*!?!?!

But it doesn't end there. There are pressures put on Canada to quintuple its extremely polluting production of tar-sand extraction of oil, so that more can be shipped, ... south of the border!!!

If that is the self-sufficiency you're referring to, we've gone full circle, and are right back to SPP general, if mismanaged intent!!! Some form of collaboration between sovereign nation. And we haven't talked about US eyeing our Hydro-Electrical capacity, and, ... our fresh water reservoirs, and the massive natural ressources it requires from a long list of other 'independent' nations, to keep the consuming 'WE THE POEPLE' 'happy', and the banks 'laughing' !!!

By the way one very significant natural resource the US needs from another country, to deal with competitiveness, is Mexican human resources!!! I know you're cringing, but 'thems' are the 'fantafacts' friend.

It has a lot more to do with 'HOW' do we best deal with this reality, than 'WHETHER OR NOT' we deal with it!!! Denial can't and won't save our tushes!


Hope I'm not catching you having dinner?!?!?!


Look forward to your reply friend.

NO Fanta, we have no disagreement!!!