Fanta,

you wrote,

"... If they did (sell US bonds they hold) , mind you Im an economic dumbass, but experts say, it could trigger a dollar crash as well as a spike in US bond yields. This could have many effects, and we may actually be seeing these now..."

That was my point earlier to suggest that it was way too late to close the borders and complacently sit back on a so-called ‘self sufficient independence’.

I wrote:

“… Your future is far more in the hands of international banks than it is in the hands of your government. That is not fantasy. That is fact. Do a quick check on who owns your horrendous national debt.
Make it on our own?!?!? With these massive 'IOU's, how do you suggest doing a 'kcuf you' to the rest of the world and close the candy shop?!?!? ...”

China of all foreign debt holders, is not only the largest holder of US bonds thus controlling to a significant extent US liabilities, it also holds the largest proportion of any other industrial country in trade deficit with the US. That is the far superior amount of goods sold to the US by China vs the amount of goods sold to China by the US. That’s a significant hand China has on the assets side of the equation.

The basic rule of thumb here is simple enough from an ‘economics 101’ basis.

Should the one whom holds your bonds: China (holding your debt against a promised yield) SELL these bonds in a massive manner, or simply STOP BUYING THEM, it will cause long-term bond prices to drop (supply and demand principle), interest rates to rise (in order to spur new interest in buying bonds), and the US dollar to fall. In the meantime, China’s huge appetite for natural resources including ‘fight’ for oil', will more than likely spur a rise in US inflation rates: cost of making and driving your cars, freighting your consumer & other goods, & manufacturing or servicing everything else, which will cause counter pressure for lower interest rates (ease cost pressures), thus limiting the lever to spur interest for DEBT BONDS, which in this case are re-named ‘DEATH BONDS’ !!! Net results: China now, at the very least, has its hands on US balls!!! They haven't started squeezing yet, that's all!!!

China has many options. Almost all options.

They can keep buying US bonds, an thus maintain the largest marketplace for their export consumer goods ‘healthy’ and capable of buying more of those goods.

They can reduce their purchase of US debt, since other markets are massively buying their goods, they are not as dependent on the US to place them.

Or, they can start selling large chunks of their US debt because it is considered very high by any standards.

The most likely scenario, is that they will REDUCE the pace of purchasing US bonds, while their proportion of exports will keep increasing to the US and thus naturally balancing their ‘assets and liability ratio’ with the US.

The massive selling of bonds by China, although feared by some, and being at te source of the fall of the US dollar in recent times, is the most unlikely scenario IMO.

Eventhough, the ratio is very high, it is China’s ‘BIGGEST STICK’ against the US. The US has even helped Japan (friend of US, foe of China) to raise its holdings in US debt to counter China gaining the big stick it now has!!!

But IMO, China has nothing to gain for now by weakening the US economy; its largest consumer goods export market (think of Wall-Mart alone: 53% of all their retail sales are China sourced!!! Try taking that away from US consumers!!!).

Does that help Fanta? Are we closer to focusing on the ‘integrated’ perspective of the world?!?!? That is has a lot more to do with ‘HOW DO WE PROCEED WITH INTEGRATION ?!?!? THAN WHETHER OR NOT WE PROCEED??!?

Back to the exact premise of this post, and trying to see if we’ve made progress through this debate, to clarify certain inexactitudes.

‘redy’ provided the following:

1) “… A meeting between President Bush, the PM of Canada, and the pres of Mexico will be held August 20-21 for firming up plans for the NAU (North American Union)…”

Do we agree by now, that the ‘NAU’ concept is a product of paranoïa 'rich' JBS and cohorts? And that it is therefore misleading for anyone to suggest that discussions are taking place in Québec to discuss such NAU, much less to ‘firm up’ such inexistant entity!

2) “… Find out why our freedoms have been usurped, who is doing it, how and what might happen if we stand by and let it…”

We probably agree by now, that there is no need to invent such a complex baseless conspiracy to explain the erosion of our individual and collective freedoms. Who is doing it is the Bush administration. How? Through a never seen before disregard for democratic principles of human and individual rights. What? The infamous ‘patriot act’, where, for the most part, Americans applauded the virtues. It is in a single law, the most retrograde step for freedom that any democratic state has taken in the past 100 years. It influences the rest of the world by imposing retrograde ‘patriot act’ standards, among which, individuals can be stripped of all rights, simply by virtue of being 'SUSPECTED' of undesired attitudes or acts.

3) “… The upcoming, so-called SPP Conference in Montebello, Quebec from August 20-21 will bring the leaders of the three countries together to ‘ratify’ the SPP, about which their respective citizens know almost nothing…”

Again, I hope we agree that no such thing is anywhere near fact! SPP is a working frame, for discussions aimed at balancing ‘security’ concerns, seeking to LIMIT access to markets, and trade, which has always naturally seeked to EASE access to markets. SPP basically explores ways to improve the workings of all existing (half-baked) trade agreements, in order to improve ‘world competitiveness’, while ensuring homeland and continental security. Nothing wrong with those objectives. Trade is going on in spite of ALENA and SPP. The intent to improve the mechanics and administration (ineffective ALENA) of this massive ‘existing North American trade marketplace’, the largest in the world by far, while ensuring security against undesired goods, human or bacterial elements, can’t be bad!!! And given all that, these are strictly discussions. Nothing has been nor will be ratified in Montebello, or any other secret place. It is bad enough that these ‘discussions’ are held in secret, we don’t need to invent anything else!!!

4) The Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP) was launched in March of 2005 as a trilateral effort to increase security and enhance prosperity among the United States, Canada and Mexico through greater cooperation and information sharing.

We probably agree by now that no such thng as ‘PARTNERSHIP’ was launched! Only first round discussions were launched in 2005, and I think Montebello are third round discussions.

Our inept leaders are making no significant progress on any of the pressing issues, and therefore keep discussing without having much to show for all the talk. That is the foundation for the secrecy. And that is all. Secrecy due to incompetence is enough to call them to account.

Some will argue that we need to exaggerate and scare people to get them off their but, and in the streets to call our inept leaders to account!!! I don’t subscribe to that mentality. Jeopardizing one’s credibility through exaggerations or, spreading exaggerations of others, in order to put someone else’s loss of credibility in light, is in the end very ineffective. However RIGHT the ends, they very rarely justify the WRONG means.


5) The SPP provides the framework to ensure that North America is the safest and best place to live and do business. It includes ambitious security and prosperity programs to keep our borders closed to terrorism yet open to trade.

Hopefully we would agree with that by now?!!? Trade is going on in a massive manner regardless of SPP. It is the more efficient and safer movement of that trade, that SPP is failing to articulate so far!!! But it is needed!

6) The SPP builds upon, but is separate from, our long-standing trade and economic relationships. It energizes other aspects of our cooperative relations, such as the protection of our environment, our food supply, and our public health.

Essentially, SPP's intent is to correct the most blatant errors of ALENA, and document and make recommendations for all the ‘blackholes’: evident issues that ALENA should have addressed, which it has not addressed.

7) The Leaders also announced the creation of North American Competitiveness Council to fully incorporate the private sector into the SPP process.

Difficult to stand for democratic principles and forbid some from participating. On the other hand, this whole secret approach basically keeping the people from full participation and opportunity to voice their opinion throughout these discussions, is IMO, the greatest scandal of this whole SPP + thing.

That is all we need to drive home. Be transparent with the people, or be gone!!!

Voil you said,

Does that help Fanta? Are we closer to focusing on the ‘integrated’ perspective of the world?!?!? That is has a lot more to do with ‘HOW DO WE PROCEED WITH INTEGRATION ?!?!? THAN WHETHER OR NOT WE PROCEED??!?

This integrated perspective you speak of, to me is how we came to this hostage position in the first place! Lifting protective tariffs for one is what has caused this huge trade deficit.

China, and Japan, as well as Taiwan still impose huge tariffs on American goods. Beef is one example, but there are many.

This globalization is driven by corporate interest and benefits only them. Not the American government, not the American people, and not the people who work under slave labor conditions in China, Taiwan, or other less fortunate countries.

If we were to revert back to protective tariffs and pull back to concern for our own interests we would suffer a short recoverable recession but we have suffered worse before. Expert's indications predict it would be a recession less severe than the one we went through during the late 70's, early 80's!

This was when most of the protective tariffs were lifted and we allowed the purchasing of cheap goods from China, and other countries to hit high gear.

Since that time we have turned a blind eye towards textile industries and other manufacturers in this country.

We have also turned a blind eye towards human rights in these so called, "fair trade" practices, and the child labor they use and the poor unregulated quality of the products these countries ship here.

We have lost jobs, outsourced by the thousands.
Quality, as evidenced by the recent flaws in toys and pet food products.
Morale, the American worker has been told consistently we are greedy and overpaid, that we can not produce products as good nor as cheap as our competitors.

I say lets sacrifice for a few years now. Pull back from the failed policies of globalization and easing of tariffs installed in the 70's and 80's. Pull back before the snowball effect makes doing so harder, and the recessive effects of doing so worse.

I realize it will take time and there will be cost to be paid in the short term, but I believe in terms of future generations (today's children) we will be better off and need to do it. The sooner the better!

Bring manufacturing jobs back home by taxing the hell out of corporations who find it cheaper to do business in other countries, and reinstalling the protective tariffs.

Start National programs of education to climb back to prominence it that regard. Engage all our American ingenuity and scientist on finding alternative energy sources, so we dont have to be held hostage for oil.

The big three already have a jump on the world in this area! We should be funding their efforts and helping them add jobs not making policies that cause them to cut jobs.

Quit attacking the American workers by calling them lazy, and build their morale back to the level it deserves. I am tired of hearing the "we cant" or "its not possible" philosophy. Cant never could! Ive seen people proud to be American, I know it can be done. Listen to their words now, and you will see how far the morale in this country has dropped!


You can read these posts and listen to the comments of the rest of the world about America and tell they would love to see us fail. Our country and its people are not in their interests!

All one must do is look at how many manufacturing jobs have been replaced by those of the service industries to see what the policies of globalization are doing to America.


Look around and listen and you can see this move, this drive toward globalization, has been done against our wishes and at the sake of our living standards.

It is driven by lobbyist that buy our politicians votes, and our politicians whose greed and concerns for their own wealth dont care.

It was only made possible by them attacking our Unions and the complacent foolishness of us listening to the lies they told us. Separate, divide, and conquer! Its the oldest trick in the book!

We need to take our country back! I will never fall for the rhetoric, and others are beginning to show their dissatisfaction as well! The politicians in this country days are numbered. Sad thing is that they yet dont understand why!

If the world wants globalization then let them catch up to our standards of living, and our sense of right and wrong.

Drive forward America, dont stop and wait, dont back up! Drive forward, always forward and dont look back! Lead by example and with our people's well being first and foremost in our minds!

Fanta,

I hear youmy friend!!!

It's a cry from the heart!

And quite honestly there is a huge part of me that holds teh same discourse with my 'blind-lowcost-consuming-idiot-compatriots'.

But the underlying force that laces all this honorable and virtuous platform you and I would fight for, IS MONEY!!!

The economy stupid!!! As the 'Clinton' electoral campaign rallying cry woulld remind everyone on his team.

Protectionism is for all intents and purposes fully enforced by the US. Wherever it is in US interest, and regardless of treaties or international laws to the contrary. Please look it up!!! COnservative propaganda will of course argue for the contrary, but I know I can count on your objectivity to cut through the B.S.

Pushing protectionism furhter than it is already, would against your own people. You're talking about the great black hole from wich no one returns. Protectionism of consuemr goods!! That is the bastion that you indirectly referring to when you talk about US made, and US jobs, etc.

So let's walk through this one slowly. Tariffs on consumer goods.

1) A toaster made in the US at current labor and manufacturing costs would end-up on the shelves at a 55% premium to its China made toaster!

2) Go tell Wall-Mart and the 10's of millions of Americans whom go to WM more often and have more faith in WM than their local church, that there is now a tarif on all consumer goods which favors the more expansive US made 55% higher priced toaster then the 'lowest price is the law' Chinese toaster!!!

3) Who will get elected on this platform, unless he/she cheats, lies and hides his real protectionistic intent and convinces congress to go for it against 'the people' wishes, which is exactly the point of this whole thread, un less I've missed something!!!!

The US has been by far the greatest abusor of protectionisitic practices. If htere are no tarifs on goods in the US, it is absolutely because it is in US interest, and not out 'generosity' to other nations!!! Please you've got to give in on that one Fanta!!!

There is no where to go with protectionism. The US has conceeded the 'consumer goods' field to emerging nations a long time ago. Not out of choice!!! But simply there is nothing they could do!!!

You cannot deny emerging countries from emerging!!! That would be most unamerican!!!

What the US, Canada, Europe, and other nations that have relied on an economy heavily based on consumer goods must do, is shift their energy and foscus to all other fields of activity. That is the gut you often refer to Fanta. The sacrifice to pay for our collective resistance to face the fact that the 'consumer goods' playground for jobs andoprosperity, which has been the biggest player in 20th century western nations prosperity, is gone. In the same way North America took from Europe throughout the 20th century, China, South East Asia, and India, are emerging and talking the manufacturing of consumer goods playground away from North America.

THE SOONER WE ALL GET THAT, THE SOONER WE WILL REALIZE THAT PROSPERITY AND A RICH LIFE DOESN'T END AT 'CONSUMER GOODS' HEAVEN!!!

Look at you Fanta!!! You're part and parcel of the revolution. Alrady an accomplished an proud citizen of the US, you chose at a later stage than most to go back to College. You could have sat back and cried for your due!!! But you chose life instead.

I suggest that millions are grappping with the same read, and are acting with the same urgency as you.

That is the North American 'can-do' attitude I trust and believe in. This profound resilience to face any degree of change, and come out on top.

You mentionned JFK inspiring America to one of civilization's greatest accopmplisment: putting a man on the moon, before the end of a decade!!!
US was down at the time. Threathened by the USSR emerging superpower.
But JFK didn't call Americans to close themselves up, on the contrary, he called them out of their apathy, to show the way to the world!!!

This is what hides behind all this seemingly complex picture. The emergence of a resilent and creative people, whom has shown in the past that picking the gold out of 'unknown future' is their specialty!!!


What do you say Fanta! at least a (-C)!!! :)

OK, a B-, and I will keep an open mind!

Better!!!

time is short for a lot of things

Mostly to keep from having to type another long post, and be cause I partially agrre with some of what you say!

But,, with higher paying maufacturing jobs Americans could afford to pay the higher cost of good.

We have yet to fell the impact, the balancing of lost wages on our purchaseing power. Also the loss of these tariffs are fueling the budget deficit and increasing Taxes on the individual.

I have no real control over anything except my personal preparation for this future you speak of, but I do not see benefits in it for the American people!

I hate this typing, I need a secretary, perhaps a little bilingual illegal immigrant. I could afford to pay her nothing and give her a bonus to cook and clean too! Salry $50,00 a day/ 16 hrs a week/w fringe benefits, for me if not for her! Call it globilization!!

16 hrs a day!!!

BRAVO!!


2 BRILLIANT and beautifully delivered perspectives

and this meeting of the minds is where we learn a new language..!!!


maybe we unravel a new MANIFESTO



vive la revolution!!!

maybe the constitution should be enforced


it is clear that it is against free trade and taxing the citizen



but who cares

Now, that last paragraph is priceless Fanta!!!

"... I hate this typing, I need a secretary, perhaps a little bilingual illegal immigrant. I could afford to pay her nothing and give her a bonus to cook and clean too! Salry $50,00 a day/ 16 hrs a week/w fringe benefits, for me if not for her! Call it globilization!..."

I can see you're coming around slowly!!!

Don't worry, I won't rush you! Take your time! :)


(besides, B- , that's a lot more than I expected from you.)

It's about time you showed up 'bl8ant' !!!

Missed you!!!

:)

i've been enjoying the parley...

and feeling a bit of awe and certainly good fortune to have happened to be witness...



i have so many feelings and perspectives about all of this and each of you have touched on some of them....

it feels nice to feel the juices of synthesis at work...mingling and reshuffling, discarding , and grasping


my mind is visual... i have pictures , and real experiences of liberating sweat houses, and the slavery that still thrives in so many markets all over the world ...trafficking...

in another corner of the picture is a world that is so dark and corrupt,
just to feed the machines

i am sure there is a moral destination..but this road to it is cancelling any

crashed....jhfnjnhgjbrntgjbrvwh


cancelling any real lasting advantages...it seems to me that a different soil is needed first before this concept get's pushed and thrusted on these poor communities...

i have too many words... and i loathe to write... i like to listen and 'act'
within the constructs of my foundation and the work we do to educate and
first establish a simple basic established infrastructure for survival and human rights.

I love reading or listening to beautiful, intelligent women!!

(((((Alex)))))

I stand next to some wonderful voices....


it's all good

To all the beautiful, intelligent women in this thread!!!

((((((anoasis, Redy, Gypsy and invisible))))))

he almost saves his ass !! ahahhahahhahaaaaa

Almost........

<--------is lost, confused, a bit hang over. Does not understand what r u talking about.