Say WHAT????????????????????????
Are you real?

You had better tread softly,very softly!

Is that a thinly veiled threat? I have a good mind to report this to the moderators.

what Threat?

You accused me of denying the Holocaust and I told you to thread softly on that?
I grew up in Europe,and am old enough to have met Survivors of the Camps,so I don't take it very gracefully when someone claims that I am a Holocaust-Denier!
Some I have met who were in Concentration-Camps drugged and Drank themselves to Death,because they couldn't cope with the Horror they had to live through in their youth!

I didn't accuse you of anything. I only asked you a question. You, however wanted to discount the very real plight of the Palestinian people by claiming that the Palestinian holocaust never occurred.

http://palestinianholocaust.net/English/In_Depth/GazaHolocaustMuseum/index.shtml

http://globalavoidablemortality.blogspot.ca/2006/05/post-1967-palestinian-israeli-deaths.html

I grew up knowing some tattooed camp survivors, so I'm quite familiar with the story of the camps.

Yep,thought this would come up!
Real slick,blaming Israel for all that!
Real slick Operators indeed!

Considering who were the Original Aggressors!

And the propensity of Hamas and PA of using Human Shields!
Hope I'll see the day when the Palestinians will hang their No-good thieving Leaders from the Lamp-Poles!
It is them who have caused the suffering in Gaza and the Territories!

You're reading things that aren't there. Where did I blame israel for everything?

Maybe we should just drop this "chatty" tit-for-tat and get back to the topic.

Well, there is no doubt that there have been a lot of needless
deaths over the years.

There are multiple inaccuracies in your list above however.

Where in the world do you get the numbers for Mao and Stalin?

I don't know of any credible historical analysis which
would give 70 million killings to Mao or 60 million killings
to Stalin or 30 million killings to the American Indian wars.

I don't know of anyone who would credibly compare war combat deaths
with mass exterminations of civilians in concentration camps
either.

In particular, in your list you seem to be trying to justify the
mass murder of the Jews by the Nazis by citing war casualties and
drastically exaggerated death tolls from other dictatorial regimes
or the Indian wars Why?

There were no mass killings of Iraqis by the Americans, no concentration camps to work them to death under armed guards.
There never was any round up of Palestinians for execution or
any way to compare those killed during warfare launched by
the Palestinians and Arab neighbors against Israel with the Armenian genocide
or the Killing Fields or the Nazi extermination of European Jews
purely on the basis of their religion.

If Israel had not been attacked, in the many wars initiated against
them by their Palestinian/Arab neighbors then there would have been
no Palestinian deaths. If Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad had not
launched rocket attacks, bus bombings and cafe bombings on Israeli
citizens then Israel would never have been forced to go in and
stop it and there would have been no Palestinians injured from those
conflicts either... So... Back to your original argument,
you compare the Nazi genocide of the Jews to pre-Copernican
incorrect views of the solar system.

Do you really believe that?

Is a denier! A denier of anyone else's pain and suffering. Very sad indeed.

There are no doubt inaccuracies in some of the numbers quoted in my list. That said, it doesn't belittle the actual deaths one bit. As Stalin said, "The death of one is a tragedy; the deaths of millions is just a statistic."

Not all of my figures were "drastically exaggerated"; they were figures I came across browsing the web over the years. Admittedly, I took the high figures, which were probably originally quoted by opposition to the various regimes. Historical research invariably drops those numbers drastically, however, what if all those figures were legislated to be "official truth?" Would that not make you a "holocaust denier" for even questioning them?

The other point is what constitutes a holocaust? The definition of the word is "Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by firee" Given that definition, the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who perished in the unnecessary Dresden firebombing, or the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would constitute genuine holocausts.



I don't and won't justify ANY mass murder by ANYONE. In fact I abhor all of it. With respect to exagerated death tolls, and as strange as it may sound to some, my figures for American indians are not an exaggeration, but an all-inclusive educated guess, not of just the American Indian wars, but also the Spanish conquest of the americas, and by the diseases brought to the Americas by The Europeans that inadvertently decimated the native population. The figure is hard to pin down exactly, but is unquestionably in the tens of millions.



I'm always skeptical of a dogma. IMO the truth should stand on it's own and should not need the protection of criminalizing legislation. That such legislation even exists anywhere to criminalize anyone who might publicly dispute even the official figures of the death camps stands against the human right to freedom of speech and expression, two principles of law that are dear to the heart of anyone in a truly free society.

Epicycles was a theory that represented the best knowledge of the day. Scientific "revisionists" found a better theory that was more accurate. What would have happened if it was law that they couldn't dispute the authorities? I think from the examples of People Like Galileo, we sort of have our answer. Sooner or later, and to spite the "official truth", the more accurate truth came out. The truth will always prevail eventually. Legislating a dogma only slows it down.

So what about the genocide of millions in Turkey?

And what is the difference between "genocide" and "holocaust"

I have noticed that some people get offended when the term holocaust is used for anyone other than the Jews. Why is that?

Takes away their sympathy time? I don't understand it either Jeannie, maybe someone here can explain why?

My ancestors were occupied for 400 years by the Ottoman empire... The atrocities were mind numbing... Maybe I should bring it up EVERYTIME a reference to Jewish WW2 suffering is made.
Naw I prefer not to pretend my people are the nucleus of the world.

interesting that one the Key-players in both the Armenian and Jewish Genocides was the same,Amin al-Husseini!

"Holocaust" used to mean "burnt offering." Torah prophecy suggests that six million Jews will "vanish" before the Kingdom of Israel is reestablished minus that six million. It might be considered as a sacrificial "burnt offering" representing the atonement of the Jewish people, for if I'm not mistaken, G-d will only allow the return of the promised land after their atonement.

To be scripturally consistent with religious Jews who would not accept a secular Israel not granted by G-d, the figure MUST be six million.

The True Torah Jews Against Zionism don't believe that the Jewish people have atoned yet, as they vigorously denounce the current State of Israel.

............and Eastern-Europe hasn't recovered from it yet!

Well I still don't think I got a straight answer.

I can't see how you can say with a straight face that the extremely
well documented evidence of the Holocaust - the genocide of the
Jews in WWII is in any way like the sun revolving around the earth.

Especially for someone who abhors violence.

With all due respect your figures of 70 million killed by Mao
and 60 million killed by Stalin and 30 million killed by Americans
are not merely exaggerated but are completely unjustifiable
exaggerations. It is never a good idea to cite the highest numbers
you can find on the internet for anything.

The Jews killed by Hitler stands on it own. It is quite simply one
of the worst instances in recorded history of genocide and it was
based purely on religious hatred. It is extremely well documented
and it is no wonder why Jews are concerned and wary of anyone who
tries to minimize it, explain it or justify it.

There is no valid comparison between Germany rounding up every Jew
they could find and sending them to death factories and Palestinians
initiating wars with Israel and being killed in the resulting battles.

There is no comparison between checkpoints and mass killings.

Now back to the UN vote.

From NYT article - Amid Euphoria Over U.N. Vote, Palestinians Still Face Familiar Challenges

By ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: December 2, 2012


At least in the short term, with Israeli elections scheduled for January, things are likely to get tougher for the Palestinians before they get better.

In Jerusalem on Sunday, the Israeli government unanimously rejected the General Assembly’s decision to upgrade the status of Palestine to a nonmember observer state of the United Nations. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu described the Palestinian move as “a gross violation of the agreements that have been signed with the State of Israel.”

In its latest response, Israel said it would not transfer tax revenues it collected on behalf of the Palestinian Authority last month, instead using the money, about $100 million, to pay off about half the debt run up by the authority to the Israel Electric Corporation.

The Palestinian Authority has already been suffering through a financial crisis, often unable to pay the salaries of its employees on time. Palestinian officials said that Arab countries had promised to donate funds and make up for any losses caused by punitive Israeli actions, though it was a shortfall in donor money, largely from Arab nations, that caused the financial crisis in the first place.

Israel’s financial sanctions followed a government decision to build 3,000 previously planned housing units in contested areas of Jerusalem and in parts of the West Bank that Israel intends to keep under any future arrangement with the Palestinians. The Palestinians have long refused to return to the negotiating table unless Israel halts the construction of settlements.

The government has also decided to continue planning and zoning work for the development of a particularly contentious area of East Jerusalem known as E1, a project long condemned by Washington because it would harm the prospects for a contiguous Palestinian state, though privately, Israeli and Palestinian officials said that this last decision could be easily reversed.

Mr. Abbas, for his part, was expected to hold meetings with the members of his leadership to discuss how to begin to translate the Palestinians’ new status into practical steps.

“We are celebrating our dignity,” said Xavier Abu Eid, a Palestinian spokesman. “Our small nation withstood a lot of pressure for something that is our right.”

But the way forward may be fraught with legal obstacles as the Palestinians try to balance their diplomatic victory with the demands of their previous, more concrete achievements.

Israel signed its agreements with the Palestine Liberation Organization, which resulted in the creation of an interim self-rule body, the Palestinian Authority. Asked whether the Palestinian Authority would remain the Palestinian Authority in name, Mr. Abu Eid said: “That requires a decision of the leadership. I think it will not be changed in a day.”

Palestinian officials have insisted that they will not give up the option of seeking to join the International Criminal Court and pursuing claims against Israel, and some Palestinians now expect their leaders to take legal action against the Israelis’ settlement building.

Letters of application for membership in various United Nations bodies and international agencies have been signed “The State of Palestine.”

But the Palestinians may not rush to change the name on the front of their passports to Palestine. Even Mr. Abbas is dependent on Israel’s good graces to be allowed to travel through checkpoints and across borders.

Many Palestinians were hoping that Mr. Abbas would now seek genuine reconciliation with his rivals in Hamas, the Islamic militant group that controls Gaza.

“Unity is the most important step,” said Malik Barghouti, an employee of the authority’s Finance Ministry in Ramallah. “We are one people.”

But if there is no tangible change on the ground, some Palestinians warned, the celebrations could eventually be eclipsed by frustration.

“Most people here think we now have lots of rights,” said Mahmoud Mansour, 22, a student of electrical engineering from Jenin in the northern West Bank, who attended the welcome rally. “When they realize that nothing has changed, they will be angry.”

F Palestine!

Another recognisable diversionary tactic complete with an appeal to emotion. An attempt to minimise the industrialsed extermination of a people by raising other examples.

"...assertions are the "official truth" (legislated dogma that by law, cannot be disputed) in many jurisdictions."

Please, refresh my memory. Is this paraphrasing Weckert, Grubach, Butz or Hoffman? Maybe Irving or Faurisson? I have seen it before.

And so what would you call the constant reference to the Jewish Holocaust as if it were the only one that ever happened in the world?

Why do you think that particular horrific event deserves more attention than the others?

The systematic killing of the Jews in WWII was the reason why so many
Jewish refugees desperately were seeking a safe haven where they could
live without being further persecuted.