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Topic: Can only statements be true or false?
creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Thu 03/08/12 08:30 AM
Fact: 1. something known to exist or to have happened 2. something known to be true -- Following from 1. The sun is a fact. My foot is a fact. My toilet is a fact. Lies are fact. Falsehood is fact. I don't think that that definition works too well. Following from 2. What makes facts true? It does not answer the question.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Thu 03/08/12 11:21 AM
Fact: 1. something known to exist or to have happened 2. something known to be true -- Following from 1. The sun is a fact. My foot is a fact. My toilet is a fact. Lies are fact. Falsehood is fact. I don't think that that definition works too well. Following from 2. What makes facts true? It does not answer the question. Well I didn't write the definition. So maybe you should find one that you like then. I don't know why you feel I did not answer your question. I did. If you don't like it, find your own answer to that too.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Thu 03/08/12 11:31 AM
Creative, do you have an example of a false fact? I mean if a fact is false, then its not really a fact is it?

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Thu 03/08/12 05:37 PM
Facts are neither true nor false. Facts are states of affairs. Thought/belief and statements aim to set those out. True statements are not facts, they are true statements. Fact/reality is what we use to judge whether or not statements are true. Correspondence to fact/reality is the only thing that makes a statement true. Nothing else suffices, as the T-sentence clearly shows. "The cup is on the table" is true if, and only if, the cup is on the table. Just because folks use the word "fact" to mean this or that, it does not make that particular terminological usage pass the muster test. If a fact is a true statement then statements, in order to be true, would need to correspond to themselves.

wux Joined Wed 07/29/09 Posts: 7426	Fri 03/09/12 03:45 AM Edited by wux on Fri 03/09/12 03:47 AM
This topic is meant to parse out what things can be true or false. Love. News reporting. Teeth. Notes. Musical notes. Banknotes. Identities. Identical titttties. Theories on truths and falshoods. The Earth's moon. (Although debate rages whether it can be "false", while its truth is not a topic of debate.) Aunt Syvlie's plum preserve recipe. Flowers. Friendship, friend kayaks, and friend canoes.

s1owhand Joined Fri 05/18/07 Posts: 29437	Fri 03/09/12 06:30 AM
Can statements only be true or false? - Maybe.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Fri 03/09/12 08:28 AM
Facts are neither true nor false. Facts are states of affairs. So are you saying that a state of affair is neither true or false? If so then what you are saying is: It just is. A state of affair, is what it is. Its neither true or false, so anything said about it is simply an opinion or point of view. Including "The cup is on the table." You say that if the cup in on the table the statement is true. Only the statement is true. The state of affair of the cup being on the table is neither true or false. Therefore what you are saying is that the terms "true and false" can only apply to a statement - not to reality or to a state of affairs which means that all statements are opinions or perspectives. Even that a statement is true or false is an opinion or an agreement.

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Fri 03/09/12 11:14 AM
Facts are neither true nor false. Facts are states of affairs. So are you saying that a state of affair is neither true or false? If so then what you are saying is: It just is. A state of affair, is what it is. Its neither true or false, so anything said about it is simply an opinion or point of view. Opinions come in statement form. Statements can be true or false. To say that anything said about fact/reality is "simply an opinion" makes all opinions equal. Statements that correspond to fact/reality are true. Some opinions(statements) are based upon fact and correctly set those out. Some not. They're not all the same, nor does fact being states of affairs cause any significant issue.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Fri 03/09/12 03:03 PM
To say that anything said about fact/reality is "simply an opinion" makes all opinions equal. yep.

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Fri 03/09/12 06:42 PM
Well, they're equal in that they're about the same things, but that's about as far as the equality goes. You do not believe that all opinions are equal Jb, and you and I both know it.

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Fri 03/09/12 07:39 PM
I mean, if that were so, then you would not spend time figuring out what to believe and what not to believe.

AdventureBegins Joined Tue 04/10/07 Posts: 7666	Fri 03/09/12 07:43 PM
Facts are neither true nor false. Facts are states of affairs. So are you saying that a state of affair is neither true or false? If so then what you are saying is: It just is. A state of affair, is what it is. Its neither true or false, so anything said about it is simply an opinion or point of view. Including "The cup is on the table." You say that if the cup in on the table the statement is true. Only the statement is true. The state of affair of the cup being on the table is neither true or false. Therefore what you are saying is that the terms "true and false" can only apply to a statement - not to reality or to a state of affairs which means that all statements are opinions or perspectives. Even that a statement is true or false is an opinion or an agreement. If the cup is on the table it is fact. Yet that fact is modified by perspective. One could view that the cup is on 'that' side of the table... the other could view that the cup is on 'this' side of the table... both agree the cup is present... But talk in circles about its 'place' in reality. Reality is also a spectrum.

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Fri 03/09/12 07:54 PM
This topic is meant to parse out what things can be true or false. Love. How is love false? What do you mean by "true love" or "false love". News reporting. Notes. Theories on truths and falsehoods. All statements. Teeth. Real and/or fake is the same as true and/or false? Musical notes. What makes the following things true/false? Banknotes. Identities. Identical titttties. Aunt Syvlie's plum preserve recipe. Flowers. Friendship, friend kayaks, and friend canoes. The Earth's moon. (Although debate rages whether it can be "false", while its truth is not a topic of debate.) What exactly is the moon's truth. How does the moon possess truth?

AdventureBegins Joined Tue 04/10/07 Posts: 7666	Fri 03/09/12 08:25 PM
Creative asks... "What exactly is the moon's truth. How does the moon possess truth? " The moon does not 'posses' anything. However when you measure it (and it's place in reality) you can derive a 'truth' from it... which can be used to 'verify' other truths within reality.

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Fri 03/09/12 10:25 PM
Do you mean true statements/conclusions about the moon AB?

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Fri 03/09/12 10:28 PM
Yet that fact is modified by perspective. How is the way things are "modified by perspective"?

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 03/10/12 07:35 AM
Well, they're equal in that they're about the same things, but that's about as far as the equality goes. You do not believe that all opinions are equal Jb, and you and I both know it. The are all equal until evidence, meaning, or or something else makes them unequal.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 03/10/12 07:37 AM
I mean, if that were so, then you would not spend time figuring out what to believe and what not to believe. It is that "figuring out" that determines what we will believe. Not the statement itself.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 03/10/12 02:46 PM
Facts are neither true nor false. Facts are states of affairs. So are you saying that a state of affair is neither true or false? If so then what you are saying is: It just is. A state of affair, is what it is. Its neither true or false, so anything said about it is simply an opinion or point of view. Opinions come in statement form. Statements can be true or false. To say that anything said about fact/reality is "simply an opinion" makes all opinions equal. Statements that correspond to fact/reality are true. Some opinions(statements) are based upon fact and correctly set those out. Some not. They're not all the same, nor does fact being states of affairs cause any significant issue. By using "correspondence to fact and reality" to gauge the of truth of a statement you are setting up "fact and reality" as the ultimate measure of what is true. Therefore facts and reality are the ultimate truth. You claim that facts are neither true or false, which is not logical since fact and reality are what you use as the foundation to measure the truth of a statement.

AdventureBegins Joined Tue 04/10/07 Posts: 7666	Sat 03/10/12 07:29 PM
Do you mean true statements/conclusions about the moon AB? True statements about our understanding of the forces measured in its study. True statemenst about our understanding of the Earth (because we also studied the moon).