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Topic: Christ without Christianity
CowboyGH's photo
Sun 11/06/11 08:36 AM



It is different because there is only one God in the the OT.
Period. The same as the mystical Taoist/Pantheist God. No different.
Not Jealous. Not having any human characteristics.


It states right in the Bible that the biblical God is a jealous God and it's one of the ten commandments that we are not to have any other Gods before him. Well, if there are no other Gods, then why even bother to make such a statement? How could anyone put another God before God if there are no other Gods to put before him?

Clearly this is just one culture trying to create a religion that will trump the religion of their neighbors. This was a common theme in the Mediterranean region. Everyone was seeking to own the copyright on God, and the Christian historically won that war.


Also, Jews at any rate do not recognize the name Yahweh - God is
not name-able in the OT. This is a misnomer.


Well according to Exodus, not only is the biblical God a jealous God, but his name is Jealous too! laugh


Exod.34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:


So when you pray you better end your prayer with,...

In Jealous' name we pray.

Hey, I'm just going by what the Bible says! Exodus 34:14

Could this be an error in the Bible?

Or is the Biblical God's name truly Jealous?


Read up on it. "Jealous" is an inaccurate description. The wording
is more like "demanding" as in expecting correct behavior such
as we expect our friends to be loyal or expect our spouses to
be faithful or expect our kids to do their best in school. We
are disappointed if they fail in their efforts and this is
described in your translation as "jealous" but it does not really
capture the essence of what is being described. It is another
instance of using a human emotion word to describe God when God
clearly cannot experience human emotions. It is the same thing
as talking about the Hand of God when God is known not to have
hands.

Obviously God can be jealous of no one and nothing. It is a another
wrong interpretation of the bible, in part due to language. So
there is an error in your bible in that respect, yes.

The context originally had to do with an explanation of monotheism.
Since there is only one God it would be inappropriate to worship
multiple Gods with varying powers. It would be wrong to view
different human standards of moral behavior as equivalent as well.
So the OT and later the NT say that a single ethic is operative for
everyone and a single God.

This view which rejects moral equivalence is described using the
same jealousy terminology in many translations but it is not
jealousy in the way of envy which is always identified to be wrong.
It is again an expression of the need to reject moral equivalence
and hold everyone to a divine standard. That is - Pol Pot's view of
what was ethical was not equivalent to what Jesus' view of what
was ethical. The english term jealousy was applied but it is not
an accurate description of these expectations as I have learned
it.

Jealousy is described as wrong in the bible and God is obviously
not experiencing a human emotion which is wrong any more than God
has a hand.

whoa

God does not have any human attributes or emotions. Except in the
view of Christians concerning Christ. But that's only the Christians
and arguably Jesus did not experience emotions the same as other
people since Jesus was God in human form on earth.

He had hands though.

drinker



God does not have any human attributes or emotions. Except in the
view of Christians concerning Christ. But that's only the Christians
and arguably Jesus did not experience emotions the same as other
people since Jesus was God in human form on earth.


We are made in the image of God. If God does not have emotions, why would we?

no photo
Sun 11/06/11 09:30 AM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 11/06/11 09:31 AM



Some of the Hebrew descriptive Names of God:


The God of Israel

The God of Compassion

All Merciful God

The God of my Salvation

The Jealous God

The Gracious God

The Holy God


please note:

The Jealous God Suggests that God watches us lovingly and closely,

like a faithful and passionate bridegroom watches over his

betrothed.

THAT is what "jealous" means here !!



http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/El/el.html


:heart::heart::heart:



That is what you interpret it to mean.flowerforyou

Why would "jealous" mean something different for God than it does for humans?

Why do people change the meaning of words in the Bible to suit themselves and what they want to believe?

Changing the meaning of the words to suit you, is tantamount to changing the written word to suit you.

(Which is something I seen being done constantly!)







Abracadabra's photo
Sun 11/06/11 12:01 PM
Jeanniebean wrote:

That is what you interpret it to mean.flowerforyou

Why would "jealous" mean something different for God than it does for humans?

Why do people change the meaning of words in the Bible to suit themselves and what they want to believe?

Changing the meaning of the words to suit you, is tantamount to changing the written word to suit you.

(Which is something I seen being done constantly!)


This is an inherent problem of any religion that claims to have a text that is the "Word of God". Everyone has their own personal interpretations and understanding of the writings, and then everyone starts to argue that only their interpretations are "correct".

This is why these religions have fallen into the many different opposing sects, from Judaism, to Islam, to Catholicism, to the many different interpretations of Protestantism.

The Catholics had the idea to simply appoint one person as a "Pope" (supposedly divinely ordained by God himself) to interpret the scriptures and be the ultimate authority on what God's Word actually means.

The Protestants protested against that notion and held out that everyone should interpret things for themselves.

Over time, ironically, individual Protestants have gotten it in their heads that their personal interpretations are indeed the only CORRECT interpretations.

And this is why today we are faced with individual protestants trying to proclaim to other people what "God Meant". laugh


Just like Jeanniebean says, "That is what you interpret it to mean."

To proclaim that this is what "God Meant" would be extremely arrogant would it not?

That's basically nothing more than attempting to proclaim the authority of the Catholic Pope, and idea that Protestants had supposedly protested against!

Protestants have come full-circle and are today violating the very ideals that they had originally protested against. No individual should claim to have the correct interpretations of scriptures for everyone else.

Yet this is basically all the Protestant ever do anymore.

They have violated their own idealism.






no photo
Sun 11/06/11 12:23 PM
They have violated their own idealism.


Not really. They have individualized it and done exactly what they wanted to do..... interpret it themselves.

Eventually every single person on earth will be a church unto themselves.

I know I am. bigsmile

Abracadabra's photo
Sun 11/06/11 01:37 PM

They have violated their own idealism.


Not really. They have individualized it and done exactly what they wanted to do..... interpret it themselves.

Eventually every single person on earth will be a church unto themselves.

I know I am. bigsmile


Well, if they stop there, then they are indeed respecting Protestantism. And many Protestants do stop there. I know my family did.

However, those who try to hold out their personal interpretations as the interpretations that should be "clear" to everyone else, are the one's who are in violation of the ideals of Protestantism.

In a very real sense I have taken taken Protestantism to its ultimate epitome by interpreting the Bible to be false rumors. laugh

I don't claim to be a "Protestant" though. :wink:

But I guess it could be said that I'm a Protest-ant. I too protest against other people's interpretations being pushed onto me.

Is that the same as being a Protestant?


no photo
Sun 11/06/11 02:42 PM


They have violated their own idealism.


Not really. They have individualized it and done exactly what they wanted to do..... interpret it themselves.

Eventually every single person on earth will be a church unto themselves.

I know I am. bigsmile


Well, if they stop there, then they are indeed respecting Protestantism. And many Protestants do stop there. I know my family did.

However, those who try to hold out their personal interpretations as the interpretations that should be "clear" to everyone else, are the one's who are in violation of the ideals of Protestantism.




So true.





no photo
Sun 11/06/11 02:58 PM
Edited by MorningSong on Sun 11/06/11 03:33 PM
Believers don't go by man's opinion.......


been thru this over and over.....




:heart::heart::heart:


pimpwagn23's photo
Sun 11/06/11 03:04 PM





It is different because there is only one God in the the OT.
Period. The same as the mystical Taoist/Pantheist God. No different.
Not Jealous. Not having any human characteristics.


It states right in the Bible that the biblical God is a jealous God and it's one of the ten commandments that we are not to have any other Gods before him. Well, if there are no other Gods, then why even bother to make such a statement? How could anyone put another God before God if there are no other Gods to put before him?

Clearly this is just one culture trying to create a religion that will trump the religion of their neighbors. This was a common theme in the Mediterranean region. Everyone was seeking to own the copyright on God, and the Christian historically won that war.


Also, Jews at any rate do not recognize the name Yahweh - God is
not name-able in the OT. This is a misnomer.


Well according to Exodus, not only is the biblical God a jealous God, but his name is Jealous too! laugh


Exod.34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:


So when you pray you better end your prayer with,...

In Jealous' name we pray.

Hey, I'm just going by what the Bible says! Exodus 34:14

Could this be an error in the Bible?

Or is the Biblical God's name truly Jealous?


Not necessarily. Names in those days weren't always the exact same name exactly. Say there was this guy named Joe. One community they may refer to him as Joe. But in another community they may refer to him as Jack, cause he knew jack squat. Names had meaning.


Well either the bible is the infallible word of God, or it contains erroneous errors and falsehoods. It can't very well be both.

So either the Biblical God's name is "Jealous", or the Bible is totally undependable, and cannot be trusted to contain truth.


If you could not translate it then yes you would be correct.
However, if you translate that into basic English you might get something like

For you are to be worshipers of no other god: For the Lord is a god who will not give his honor to another


I've already posted this once. For future reference to all your repeat questions you can look back in the thread. When translated to basic english you will notice the word "jealous" isn't used because english is not the same now as it was than.

no photo
Sun 11/06/11 03:20 PM
Edited by MorningSong on Sun 11/06/11 03:29 PM
Believers STUDY the Word.


The Holy Spirit is the Believers helper and teacher as we study.



flowerforyou:heart:flowerforyou

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 11/06/11 05:21 PM






It is different because there is only one God in the the OT.
Period. The same as the mystical Taoist/Pantheist God. No different.
Not Jealous. Not having any human characteristics.


It states right in the Bible that the biblical God is a jealous God and it's one of the ten commandments that we are not to have any other Gods before him. Well, if there are no other Gods, then why even bother to make such a statement? How could anyone put another God before God if there are no other Gods to put before him?

Clearly this is just one culture trying to create a religion that will trump the religion of their neighbors. This was a common theme in the Mediterranean region. Everyone was seeking to own the copyright on God, and the Christian historically won that war.


Also, Jews at any rate do not recognize the name Yahweh - God is
not name-able in the OT. This is a misnomer.


Well according to Exodus, not only is the biblical God a jealous God, but his name is Jealous too! laugh


Exod.34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:


So when you pray you better end your prayer with,...

In Jealous' name we pray.

Hey, I'm just going by what the Bible says! Exodus 34:14

Could this be an error in the Bible?

Or is the Biblical God's name truly Jealous?


Not necessarily. Names in those days weren't always the exact same name exactly. Say there was this guy named Joe. One community they may refer to him as Joe. But in another community they may refer to him as Jack, cause he knew jack squat. Names had meaning.


Well either the bible is the infallible word of God, or it contains erroneous errors and falsehoods. It can't very well be both.

So either the Biblical God's name is "Jealous", or the Bible is totally undependable, and cannot be trusted to contain truth.


If you could not translate it then yes you would be correct.
However, if you translate that into basic English you might get something like

For you are to be worshipers of no other god: For the Lord is a god who will not give his honor to another


I've already posted this once. For future reference to all your repeat questions you can look back in the thread. When translated to basic english you will notice the word "jealous" isn't used because english is not the same now as it was than.


Both the Old and New Testament words for jealousy are also translated “zeal.” Being jealous and being zealous are essentially the same thing in the Bible. God is zealous—eager about protecting what is precious to Him.

no photo
Sun 11/06/11 06:09 PM
being jealous and being zealous are essentially the same thing in the Bible


noway

Wow, really? No wonder nobody can interpret the Bible correctly or agree on anything.

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 11/06/11 06:38 PM

being jealous and being zealous are essentially the same thing in the Bible


noway

Wow, really? No wonder nobody can interpret the Bible correctly or agree on anything.


zeal - n. Enthusiastic devotion to a cause, ideal, or goal and tireless diligence in its furtherance

zealous - marked by active interest and enthusiasm; "an avid sports fan"

Jealous - Feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages.

--------------

If someone is "zealous" about someone, if they are enthusiastic about this person, If they are devoted to this person, they would then be "Jealous" of this person giving their attention and love to someone/something else besides them. If they were not "zealous" about someone/something, they would have no reason to be "jealous". So don't know what you're talking about on not agreeing with one another. Either word could be used and it still have the same meaning, the same intentions, the same outcome.



no photo
Sun 11/06/11 07:17 PM
Jealousy is mostly the fear of losing the love and or attention of someone.


CowboyGH's photo
Sun 11/06/11 07:46 PM

Jealousy is mostly the fear of losing the love and or attention of someone.




Not necessarily. Say a guy see's his woman being extra nice to another man. He would quite possibly get jealous. Not out of fear, she's going to leave him not out of fear she's found "better", not out of fear of anything. Just is envy of the attention she is giving him, think he should be the only one to get that attention like that.

Not denying your example of jealousy in anyway either, there are many reasons for jealousy and many different responses to that emotion.

no photo
Sun 11/06/11 10:20 PM


Jealousy is mostly the fear of losing the love and or attention of someone.




Not necessarily. Say a guy see's his woman being extra nice to another man. He would quite possibly get jealous. Not out of fear, she's going to leave him not out of fear she's found "better", not out of fear of anything. Just is envy of the attention she is giving him, think he should be the only one to get that attention like that.

Not denying your example of jealousy in anyway either, there are many reasons for jealousy and many different responses to that emotion.


Whatever you imagine "jealousy" to be, it is my opinion that it is a very negative attribute even for a human. I would not want a God that suffers from it.

It smacks of an insecure and possessive person whose underlying bottom line is fear of losing what they have.

It's not an attribute I have and not one I will tolerate in my friends or lover.


s1owhand's photo
Sun 11/06/11 11:01 PM
Edited by s1owhand on Sun 11/06/11 11:31 PM



Jealousy is mostly the fear of losing the love and or attention of someone.




Not necessarily. Say a guy see's his woman being extra nice to another man. He would quite possibly get jealous. Not out of fear, she's going to leave him not out of fear she's found "better", not out of fear of anything. Just is envy of the attention she is giving him, think he should be the only one to get that attention like that.

Not denying your example of jealousy in anyway either, there are many reasons for jealousy and many different responses to that emotion.


Whatever you imagine "jealousy" to be, it is my opinion that it is a very negative attribute even for a human. I would not want a God that suffers from it.

It smacks of an insecure and possessive person whose underlying bottom line is fear of losing what they have.

It's not an attribute I have and not one I will tolerate in my friends or lover.




That is why it is obvious that "jealous" is a mistranslation.
God does not have negative attributes. The correct translation
of this word in most instances starting here is more like
"demanding" or "has high expectations".

In fact, envy is said in several places in the bible to be wrong.

So yes you are right that envy is wrong and you are wrong that
God is envious. Obviously God has no reason be envious of any one
or anything.

laugh

no photo
Sun 11/06/11 11:14 PM
That is why it is obvious that "jealous" is a mistranslation.


Then add that to ten thousand other mistranlsations. Looks like the whole Bible is pretty much a mistranslation.

s1owhand's photo
Sun 11/06/11 11:34 PM

That is why it is obvious that "jealous" is a mistranslation.


Then add that to ten thousand other mistranlsations. Looks like the whole Bible is pretty much a mistranslation.


There certainly are a lot of difficulties in reading ancient texts
and translating them into multiple languages. But it is really
pretty easy to understand and is not that confusing for anyone who
actually takes the time to try to understand it a little bit.

drinker

no photo
Sun 11/06/11 11:55 PM
Edited by MorningSong on Mon 11/07/11 12:01 AM
No mistranslations.....the Word just needs to be

PROPERLY studied.flowerforyou



Strong's Concordance


The Strong's concordance is a very useful tool for STUDYING THE SCRIPTURES . It takes every single word of the King James Version and lists where each word can be found in the scriptures. It is useful for locating scripture verses that you know the words to, but don't know the book, chapter and verse.

For example, let's say that you know of a verse that says our hairs are numbered. You could look up the word "numbered" in a Strong's Concordance and it would give you a listing of all the verses that contain the word "numbered". You would then find Matthew 10:30, where Yahushua said that "the very hairs of your head are all numbered". You can find the Strong's Concordance in most any bible bookstore (See the graphic to your right).



Also beside each verse reference there is a number. That number represents a Hebrew word (if in the Old Testament) or Greek word (if in the New Testament). In the back of the book it lists Hebrew and Greek words used to translate the bible into English. Each has a a number beside them so that we may only need to know the number to locate a Greek or Hebrew word. Then we can do a word study by reading the MEANING OF THE ORIGINAL WORD. Whenever I refer to a number in the Strong's concordance, you can look up the number for yourself in the Strong's Lexicon or other lexicons that use Strong's numbers to verify everything.


One thing to keep in mind is that while the Strong's Concordance is fairly reliable in its lexicon definitions, it is relying on 19th century scholarship. One of the best ways to determine the TRUE MEANING OF A WORD IS LOOK UP THAT WORD IN HEBREW OR GREEK LEXICON to see how it was TRANSLATED in various places (See below). Also, Hebrew especially has various verb forms, tenses and stems that can have different meanings. The Strong's Lexicon doesn't do much to address this, but others (such as the Brown Driver Briggs that the online concordance uses) have more detailed definitions for each verb stem.




Differences with the Online Concordance


With the online concordance, you have a tool even better than a normal Strong's Concordance. You can search multiple words and find all the verses with those words in it. For instance, you could search using the two words "beginning created" and find 4 verses that contain both of these words. This is something that a normal Strong's Concordance cannot do. Also, you can search the concordance by Strong's number. For instance, if you wanted to find all the occurrences of the Hebrew word #07723 (Shav), you put 7723 in the search box and it would list the scripture verses that contain this word. This makes it possible to get a FULLER MEANING OF THE WORD when you see how it is used in the context of other verses.


http://www.eliyah.com/strongs.htm



:heart::heart::heart:

|

s1owhand's photo
Sun 11/06/11 11:59 PM
Sorry Morning but the english word "jealous" fails to capture the
meaning in this case. Although I will agree with you that those
who study the bible are not confused and do not think that God
experiences "envy".

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