I have noticed in these threads concerning spiritual things and religion that there is a lot of stereotyping going on without getting to know the people as people. It's been suggested to me that this does not matter, well I would disagree. It matters very much when talking about spiritual things unless you are a single unit of belief divinity and in that case you should not talk at all for there would be no need or desire to.

I would like it made very clear that I do not have a desire to use God as a tactic. I'm a student always learning about the things that make me happy and give me peace. Things that can and have rubbed off on others and received by me from them.

Here are the ingredient to the pie of my life.

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness and self control

Outside of these I find myself sad, angry or lost.

I'm fascinated by spiritual teachings and did not grow up with indoctrination of any particular kind. I was not schooled in Buddhism or Christianity or any other. In fact if any thing I would have been school in the belief that we are Gods. We live life, we live it our own way then we die. Right and wrong to me was never really taught but felt. If I felt bad, guilty, sad, afraid,tempted or angry I instinctively knew these were on the negative side. I didn't need to be programed to figure this out, believe me it came very natural. In my life there was nothing trained to break away from there was only maturing.

A miraculous thing happened to me in 1976. Maybe that was the date of awareness or awakening but what ever it was (as I thought in my mind) out went the negative and in came the positive. Keep in mind that I really didn't up to this time think in the terms of sin but more what was going on negative and positive in my life. Well this change was nothing shy of a conversion. I mean I woke up a completely different person than the day before. My desires changed, my thinking changed, my habits changed everything changed. this is before I even went into a church or read anything spiritual. God to me was something I saw in movies, Christ was something I saw on billboards and Buddha was something I saw in Chinese restaurants. That's as far as it went until my conversion. Without anyone telling me somehow I knew I wanted to go to church, any church. Anything that looked holy in any way was someplace I wanted to be. I had more people say what are you doing here than I could count. When people started asking me what belief I was my answer would be I was converted by God. I picked up everything I could read and walked into every type of service I could to try to see if I could find a match between my new life and the historical belief system that this new conversion was attached to. It wasn't long before I realized that I was being pulled into a loving relationship that was extremely personal between me and this man Jesus. Buddha was very cool and had much good to look at and I like many of the what seemed mystical ways about him but for me Jesus seemed so real and personal. The more I read about him the deeper my desire came to be the things that I live by. He was the "fruits of the spirit" as I came to know them later.

I had all the questions that I see mentioned up here, but they were way back in my thinking because I was so focused on the good of this new found life and love.

I had the opportunity to take courses because at the time I was touring in music and universities would open up corespondents courses and stop in (coop) courses. Kinda like what we have today but much more book work back then and you had tutors instead of being in class rooms so you got a lot more personal attention. I took everything I could from what ever religion was available to me. I got into it so much that when not traveling I attended school on several campuses as a C (coop)student. by the time I was 21 I had made up my mind that without a doubt Christ was who had made the changes in my life and I had the holy spirit living within me. I still totally respected the other views and never separated myself from all that I had and continue to learn. this somewhat separates me from the "must choose a congregation" crowd but that's OK with me I was too busy to stick my nose in other peoples business other than learning from them in ways that complete me as a spiritual person. After finishing Bob Jones and Columbia U I worked for NIBS for 3 more years as their video preview manager. this allowed my to work 8 hrs a day on all of the courses that came through the place. At that time NIBS was the biggest denominational and interdenominational collection of courses in the world. I took every course in the catalog.

I never really got into debates much because for some reason the friends around me were very peaceful as well my wife was. We never put up barriers around us but would test the spirit as we always have. If people were positive we wanted to be around them, if they were negative we knew that they had issues with their belief system that were not yet resolved. This we found was always the sign of true strength in a belief.

As far as labels go and what camp I am in I wouldn't know how to answer that except to say that I have found the love and peace that maintains me. I would say that this would make me a Christian as I love the Lord Jesus, God the heavenly father and the holy spirit who lives inside of me and walks with me every day.

As far as some of the questions and comments here where people are trying to paint certain mythical pictures of the ones I love. I have seen this done in many churches and movies as well too but for myself I have studied enough to see what is shallow and what produces the positive. To me these historical stories are fascinating and show how life was back in the times the events took place.

As far as what bible interpretation I trust. The bible is by far the most exploratory book there is. More people have researched this book than any other, not so much to disprove it as is the thought by some up here but because it is the deepest piece of writing ever written in the history of man. There's never been another book with the same basic theme been put together from so many writers. If you took each book you could make a religion or belief system off of just that book. As a whole it can be cross referenced as no other belief system. It has a theme for everyone that incorporates every belief system that focuses on the good of man and spirit.

I do read other belief systems and do see much of what is said in them to be close to what the bible says. There is not to much that is not in common between the historical books of man kind. It's true that the translations in English have made problems for many who look at the bible or any other old book on the surface, but it's the spirit of God that changes lives and gives us deeper understanding.

I'm only a student in love with the one who has taught me the pieces of the pie that make my life happy to be lived.

wow

I like who you say you are,, its inspiring,,,thanx

Sounds like a good list of ingredients to have. It's hard for me to imagine anyone who wouldn't genuinely desire these things. But as we well know there are people who exist who don't even remotely seem to be interested in these things, unfortunately.

As far as feeling a need to be "converted", I've never felt that way. I like myself just the way I am. Other than a few old-age aches and pains, there's nothing about myself that I would even desire to change.

My only question to you, just out of pure curiosity, would be to ask "What was that you were converted from?". A non-believer?

I've always innately felt a connection to the mystical primal source of life that people typically call "God". So I personally can't imagine being "converted". The only way to "convert me" would be to convince me to become an atheist.

Thanks, I hope it helps others get a read on me as they read my posts. Sometimes I might come off to be short in a funny way when I answer others posts but if they read this they will see that I just see no need or desire to argue. I will happily take in the positive that they say. I also have the utmost respect for those deserving it and at the same time the need to stay peaceful on my daily walk.

If I ever do cut someone short or don't answer their questions it's only because I sense that they have a problem with something within themselves that is a bigger issue than any they would have with me.

I'm here to love and receive love, but if the love I have only goes one way that's cool too. I don't mind cracking a joke at someone having a bad day trying to get them to lighten up and take off those mean glasses. If the God I serve is a God of hate he certainly made a big mistake in making me cause because of him I have been renewed into someone full of love and peace. I truly am displeased with myself when I fall prey to my own selfishness and become a person who is acting or reacting to what I now have learned to know as sin. Sin to me can be described very easily. It's anything that takes me away from the fruit I was meant to be. I can only deal with what comes into my life and what I see around me as I live my life. All that I see can be handed over to the spirit that guides me and I can easily judge if it is negative or positive if I am in tune. So for myself staying in tune is the most important goal before any other. This is also the same goal as many other spiritual practices. When we see someone taking that negative approach we know that they themselves are not on the positive side of their own belief. This is a fundamental in all beliefs that follow a God of love or any belief where the individual is to determine right from wrong. If we are alive enough to hold any kind of passion about any topic than we are alive enough to have a negative/positive meter built in us. We can try to tell others that this is not the case but there is no way to hide the negative side from others as it will come out in speech as well as actions. And most importantly we know when we are on the negative side, and we know we need to get back to the positive in order to cure us from the insanity of the negative because when we are angry by definition we are insane from our sane self. This is not hard to pick up on even with physical testing.

Our lives have every opportunity to spread the goodness that comes from God and we ourselves can be the reflection of that love and light when we seek to stay in the positive place that has been provided for everyone. If we spent more time in that place and less time making judgments on others who we might think are out of that place we could experience a true transfer of love without strings attached.

So it's as easy as this, do we see good or do we see bad. If we see bad we had better change our glasses till we get the right prescription or we will be on the attack of others when we could be at peace with them and ourselves.

msharmony as far as you go, thank you for making the contributions to my life on the positive side that you do almost every day.

and to the others who read this, love and light to you

Enjoyed this peace filled post. Thank you for sharing it

I'm certainly support this view, and it would be super great if everyone would would work toward this goal.

Allow everyone have their own experience with God without trying to convince them that they must do it via a specific religion. Even recognize that the people we refer to as "atheists" actually have a relationship with God even though they may not acknowledge it as such.

Technicalities are totally unimportant.

I wrote a song about this very thing, and Rev. Rabbit was kind enough to sing it.

My song can be found here:

It's called "The War is Over"

http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/peace.htm

John Lennon also wrote a song along similar lines called "Imagine"

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


John's song embraces a bit more of an atheistic theme, but either way, it's an expression of love.

If we can spread love in spite of religions rather than using religions to spite love we will indeed have made a major step forward.

That's a great post, thanks, I feel more comfortable with our talks. I'll go by paragraphs if I can.

1) I can't walk in their shoes. I wouldn't have any idea why people would not choose to live in peace. I don't think I could survive long outside of the list I gave.

2) I don't think I ever really felt like I needed to convert. I wasn't aware if there was a need, but after the change it was like night and day. Kinda like how I said an awakening. I truly saw all things new.

3) I never gave it much thought to what I was. I guess I could point at habits that changed but it was much more than that. It wasn't me making changes by will, I just changed and had a different outlook on life from that moment on.

4) Well lets hope none of us convert to that. Being in a life without God would be very dark.

I really appreciate you talking to me this way, thanks

I have to hook up my speaks, then I'll listen, thanks.

love John, I listen to their stuff almost every day.

So your "LOVE CLUB" here is already exclusive and prejudice against atheists proclaiming that they are "in the dark"?

Poor John Lennon has already been kicked out as being a person who is "in the dark".

I don't think I care to join your so-called "Love Club". Sounds more like a religiously bigotry cult to me.

What about Wiccans? Are then in the dark too?

Can I join your "Love Club" and worship God through Hecate?

Does that count as having God in my life? Will you respect Hecate as a valid connection with God?

Or would I be considered to be "in the dark" as well?

I want to know before I join so-called your love club.

I respect atheists as potentially being quite enlightened and filled with love. Of course, that depends on the individual. But I'm certainly not going to judge all atheists as being "in the dark" with a huge blanket of bigotry. Nor would I care to join any so-called "Love Club" that views them as such either.

I refuse to give my support to that kind of exclusion and bigotry.

Atheists can be just as loving and enlightened as anyone.

So I'm already in disagreement with your exclusionary views here.

So what about Hecate?

Is she accepted in your "Love Club" as a valid connection with God or not?

I'd like to know where I stand in the judgment of your so-called "Love Club".

thank you

I think that is who I am , someone who tries to be balanced but focus on progress and positivity

,,,TRIES,,lol

I can relate to this experience because the exact same thing happened to me. I went from agnostic to believing in "God" overnight.

I went from a negative lifestyle and negative friends to almost feeling like a hippie in the "free love" movement.

Like you, I reached out to spiritual things looking for like minded people. But I did not run to church. My experience with religion and churches were not a very positive thing.

I think that this "enlightenment" to "love" is not about religion at all. It is not about ancient myths or organized religious beliefs. It is about, as Morningsong says, a personal relationship with God.

But some people feel a desperate need to reach out to a community of like minds and they seek a church or some other religious path. I did also,(although not a Christian church) but I have since left that path.

I have learned that a personal relationship with God does not require a church or a religion or a doctrine. It does not require a list of rules and regulations for living your life.

If you embrace LOVE you need not embrace anything else. The path to God is within and it is about Love. Each person comes to that path eventually but they have to be open to allow love and to allow truth into their being.

There seems to be a need to attach that love to something or someone that seems real and human, and I think an Icon like Jesus is what some people find to attach it to as he represents love and perfection. I don't have a problem with that but I realize that the idea sometimes entangles itself with man made religions and misinterpretations of scripture.

Love itself is not a "human." Have you ever felt love and wanted to shout "I Love You!" but you did not know who you were actually talking to? I have.

Have you ever felt joy and you had no reason for feeling it? I have.

I feel a core in me that is pure love and pure joy. That is my personal relationship with God.

I have learned that each path is an individual path and to attempt to reach out to other people's path to find "togetherness" or like minded people will eventually drag you down into their dogma.

The path to God is an inner path and it is an individual path. The "messiah" is that light of love that has entered your being.

The Messiah has come to those who embrace love. There is no need to seek for more than that.

I believe that humans will begin experiencing this experience of the Messiah of love in the near future and realize that the Messiah has come. Some have received it already, some have always felt its presence.

I concur.

Moreover, anyone who believes in Jesus should recognize this truth. Jesus himself was accused by the pharisees of doing "good works" using the power of Satan. And Jesus responded to that charge saying:


Luke 11:17-18

But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

So if we charge atheists to be "without God", then from whence does their love flow?

And to charge them to be devoid of love is a hateful thing to do.

The very thing that Jesus stated above applies to atheists. If an atheist exhibits love, than that atheist, like Jesus, is indeed in direct harmony and connection with God. They are one with the father, just like Jesus proclaimed to be.

Jesus provides the answer here for anyone who gives his words any merit at all.

There is no credible way to renounce any loving person in the name of Jesus. It just won't fly.

All who LOVE must be recognized as being connected with God no matter what their religious beliefs or non-beliefs they profess to have.

Using Jesus as an excuse to segregate people from God can never be justified.

Loving atheists must be recognized to be just as connected to God as anyone else.

Love that song!

I feel for the atheists y'all know if they're dark and depressed. My life is quite bright and cheery, filled with love and laughter (eyes the bratty puppy!). I enjoy the here and now, don't live with regrets or fear of future punishment by a higher power, and when my death comes, I won't be fighting to hold on.

Well Amen to that!

You cannot segregate anyone who has accepted love into their hearts from that which is its source.....GOD.

The devil is in the details.

All you need is love.

Truly.

Besides, if an "atheistic" existence could happen once, why couldn't it happen again?

I personally cannot even conceive of a concept of "true atheism" (meaning a world that is no the result of some mystical immortal consciousness.

Just the same, I try real hard to imagine what it would be like to actually comprehend that notion. The only thing I can imagine is to imagine blacking out at death and simply ceasing to exist altogether.

There would be absolutely nothing "dark" or "scary" about such a fate. On the contrary if that's the true reality of death then we will never even know that we had died, much less that we had ever lived. What could be "dark" or "scary" about non-existence?

However, like I say, I find that concept to be extremely implausible.

Why? Because I am this universe. There is absolutely nothing that is "me" that is not also this universe. Therefore where could I go expect back to that from whence I came?

And if I go back to that from whence I came, and I had arisen from that at least once already, then why could I not "arise" again? I obviously achieved that feat once already!

If I can do it once, I can probably do it again without end.

I think people who need to believe in a personified Godhead simply can't comprehend an idea beyond that. They need to imagine that there is a single entity that is "Control" of everything, otherwise they feel "Lost".

But in all honest, that "single controlling personified image" of a human-like God is actually far "Darker" to me.

Moreover, if there could be one such egotistical personified "Godhead" then why not infinitely many?

This desperate need people seem to have just one egotistical judgmental ego in charge of everything makes no sense to me.


I guess they don't even trust "Gods" to be able to get along if there are more than one of them.

Perhaps this is a hang over from Greek Mythology when the Gods were always doing nasty things to each other just like humans do.

They finally decided to have just ONE God, and then there's no need to worry about having him get along with anyone else.

But wouldn't that truly just be a way to avoid having multiple Gods who are truly mature enough to actually GET ALONG?

I'd rather there be a whole lot of Gods who can truly get along without any conflicts at all, than to believe in only ONE God who obviously isn't prepared to get along with anyone other than himself.

That would truly be a pathetic idea of a God, IMHO. A God that NEEDS to be the only God because he can't get along with anyone but himself.



That's a pretty sad picture of a God if you ask me.

I was just thinking too:

What if the atheists are right and there is no "God"?

Then to proclaim that all love comes from "God" is actually to do nothing more than short-change the TRUE SOURCE of Love which would indeed be the individual humans who exhibit acts of love and experience the emotions of love.

Demanding that love comes only from "God" is actually no different from making the claim that humans alone are basically incapable of "love" on their own.

I'm not so sure that I would be willing to buy into that one even if there is a God. I would still suggest that humans are individually capable of love themselves.

In fact, it would be an oxymoron for anyone to claim to "Love God" if they have no love of their OWN.

What sense would it make to claim to "love God" if it is claimed that "all love" comes FROM God?

There's a paradox right there.

According to the Bible people are supposed to love God with all their heart, soul, and mind. Yet, if the only entity that can create and emanate love is God himself, then this whole ideal seems to be problematic.

There are just tons of contradictions associated with these ancient religious stories, IMHO.

To all who embrace LOVE:

Can you embrace loving people without nitpicking the details about how you feel their personal relationship with God should be?

I don't think it matters how we reach love, but that we reach it and let it into our being.

I agree.

And I also agree with mg in the qualities that he listed along with other great qualities:

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness and self control

But none of these things are specific or restricted to an particular religious or spiritual beliefs. An atheist could easily seek and exhibit any or all of these qualities. There is no need for a person to believe in any god in order to attain these kinds of virtues and desires. They are totally available to everyone who seeks them, be they religious or not.

If fact, if I can have everything on that list at all times I would be quite happy even from a purely selfish point of view. It'd be great to have all those things on that list at all times.

I'd rather have the things on this list he gave than fame, fortune, or power. In fact, I have no desire to fame, fortune, or power at all.

Well, "fortune" is nice to have insofar as it prevents a person from lying in a gutter starving to death.

It would be hard to have "joy" without at least enough "fortune" to obtain a healthy life.

But yes, I'm all for the things that mg listed. No need for any religion to obtain those things.

I was once asked what I would chose. Fame, fortune, power, etc. were all considered.

I chose truth.

Turns out, truth = LOVE.