I think it is very poor taste for someone to offer to spread "love" around in Jesus' name and then refuse to acknowledge the merit of other people's spiritual beliefs.

When you're prepared to respect my spiritual beliefs, let me know.

When you're ready to quit using Jesus as a weapon and start to actually show LOVE to everyone, including the atheists, let me know.

Until then, don't talk to me about "poor taste".

Let's just all get along.

I think it is very poor taste for someone to offer to spread "love" around in Jesus' name and then refuse to acknowledge the merit of other people's spiritual beliefs.

When you're prepared to respect my spiritual beliefs, let me know.

When you're ready to quit using Jesus as a weapon and start to actually show LOVE to everyone, including the atheists, let me know.

Until then, don't talk to me about "poor taste".

I believe people think too much.

I don't put God in a box anymore.

I was born and raised into Christianity. Therefore Christianity will always be a part of who I am. No one can ever take that away from me. It's my history.

And since I was strongly affected by that religion throughout my entire life I feel compelled to give my "testimonial" concerning the religion. And my "testimonial" is very much in line with Isaac Newton's experience and conclusions.

After having been awakened to the reality that the Abrahamic picture of God is untenable I moved on to view other spiritual ideas and religions.

Not "seeking God", from my perceptive I knew "God" intimately ever since early childhood. When I realized that the Biblical picture of God was false, I simply acknowledged that it was that picture of God that was false. It never phased my actual belief in God.

It just woke me up to the fact that religion does not equate to God.

I moved on to look at the Eastern Mystical picture of God. That picture is deeply abstract and difficult to grasp intellectually. I found a wonderfully entertaining author named Alan Watts that opened my eyes to many things.

Eastern Mysticism is extremely difficult to grasp for many reasons. One reason is because there are many different views in that religoin as well. It's really not much different from all the other mythologies of God in that respect. It too, is a man-made philosophy and filled with the opinions and views of many different people.

I finally took a step back from religion altogether. I still believed in "God" (or spirituality), but I simply no longer saw any need at all for religion. So for quite some time I didn't even bother with religion much at all. I just didn't see any need for it.

About the only time I gave it much thought was when people would try to convince me of Christianity. And then I would offer them my reasons for having rejected that picture, and state that even though I wasn't totally convinced of the Eastern Mystical picture I felt that it actually made far more sense.

People would start asking me a lot of questions about the Eastern Mystical picture. I soon realized that I too, would finally like to take another look at it in more depth. Being older and more mature perhaps I could get a whole new vantage point. And I did.

I even took a college course on Buddhism. I must confess that I was both shocked and "enlightened" to the many different forms of Buddhism. It's as silly to say that a person believes in Buddhism as it is to say that a person believes in the Abrahamic religion.

The very next question should be, "Which Abrahamic religion?", or "Which Buddhism". There are many different views of Buddhism and they differ as wildly as Christianity differs from Islam. There are also many different versions of Buddhism just like there are many different denominations of Christianity.

During those studies is when I realized that Jesus fits the description of Mahayana Buddhism to a "T". Especially the concept of a Bodhisattva which was deeply entrenched in Mahayana Buddhism. And far more surprisingly is that Mahayana Buddhism was at it's peak right around the time when Jesus was said to have lived. That is just far too big of a coincidence for me to ignore. I'm now completely convinced that some guy named Jesus was strongly influenced by Mahayana Buddhism and became a Bodhisattva and taught against the immoral teachings of the Torah.

I realize that many Christians find that suggestion to be highly offensive, because they find any suggestion that Jesus might not have been God to be highly offensive. But it's a conclusion that I personally feel makes far more sense than anything else.

Again, not meaning to offend, but the very idea that an all-wise all-intelligent creators would be involved in a plot to have his only begotten son crucified to pay for the sins of man does not equate to wisdom nor intelligence, IMHO.

So the idea that Jesus was a mortal man who simply tried to teach better moral values than had been taught in the Torah makes far more sense to me. And it's also clear to me that Jesus did not support the immoral teachings of the Torah.

So for me that's a done deal. I will never go back to believing in the Christian picture again. That's not even possible for me not. I have far better explanations for how those stories came to be what they are today.

To go back to Christianity and a belief in a God who is associated with blood sacrifices to pay for sins, simply isn't rational.

Today, one of the most popular forms of Buddhism is Zen Buddhism. However, that form of Buddhism really almost amounts to nothing more than glorified atheism. I suppose that depends on how an individual views it. But that's what Zen Buddhism seems to have evolved into. Zen Buddhism is about as far removed from the original Buddhism as any Buddhism can be.

A form of Buddhism that I personally find intuitively attractive is Tantra Buddhism. This is a form of Buddhism that is closely related to the Tibetan Buddhism of the Dalia lama. It's also closely related to the style of Eastern Mysticism that is taught by Deepak Chopra. I've watched almost all of his video and I enjoy his presentations very much.

I don't take anything from Buddhism as being concrete or the final word. In fact, that's a big no-no in Buddhism anyway. Buddhism teaches that you should seek your own truths. They just offer philosophy and ideas to help you in your own search for truth.

I'm not even sure if it should be called a "religion". Perhaps a better description would be to call it a "spiritual philosophy".

It's not a dogma. It's an "enlightenment".

Although I had studied Buddhism and practices many of the things that it teaches such as yoga exercises, meditations, etc. I never really felt like I was following a 'religion'. Possibly because I never really did any of those things "religiously". I wasn't striving to experience some "great enlightenment" or anything like that. I just used the techniques when I felt like it.

I supposed that I had previously separated religion from "God" so long ago that I even though I was enjoying many of the techniques of Buddhism I really didn't connect them to "God" specifically. I was just experience various spiritual states of consciousness.

~~~~

Sorry if I'm rambling. But if I just answered your question by stating that I'm currently a "Wiccan" that wouldn't have any meaning to you. Thus I feel a need to elaborate.

~~~~~

A few years ago, I was about to "give up" on "religion" altogether. Not to suggest that I would quit mediating and things like that, but rather I just never found a "religion" that I could truly connect with my intuitive experience of "God".

But then a witch (at least she was a witch at that time) introduced me to some books on witchcraft written by Christopher Penczak. She seemed to be taking witchcraft seriously as a valid religion. As did some other Wiccans on the forums. In fact, I even knew some Wiccans personally who took witchcraft seriously.

Having been a Christian, I had been brought up to believe that "Witchcraft" was total fiction and had no more reality than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Witches were just cartoon characters that we dress up like on Halloween to get free candy.

Well, once I started reading Penczak's books I began to realize that this is indeed a quite serious spirituality that holds every bit as much merit as all these other religions that I've been exposed to up to this point.

In fact, having been exposed to, and educated in, the many different forms of Buddhism I realized that these traditions of Witchcraft actually most likely have their roots in Eastern Mysticism and in Buddhism and Taoism specifically. Especially the Tantra Buddhism which is also closely related to Taoism.

The "Wiccan" view, (I'll call it "Wiccan" but that label has a very misleading history), actually goes far back into history and I personally believe that it had it's rawest origins in central China.

As it migrated to Europe it evolved and various concepts changed form, although the underlying concepts remained somewhat consistent on the deepest most philosophical levels.

And of course, when it clashed with the Abrahamic religions it also became highly contaminated with various Jewish and Christian concepts and views. So it's a clash of many different spiritual views.

What attracted me to it the most?

Intuition.

By this point I had realized from the teachings of Buddhism and Deepak Chopra's interpretations of Eastern Mysticism, that spirituality is a CALLING. You can't force it. It either calls to you or it doesn't. And if it calls then you should follow if it feels like the right thing to do.

Well, these views of Wicca were clearly calling to me and it felt absolutely perfect to follow the call. So I did. I've followed it and it has become a very deep part of my life now.

It's right for me. I have no question about this.

I suppose I could say that it has become my current "religion".

Although, it would probably be wrong to simply say that I'm merely a "Wiccan" because that label itself is ill-defined. That's a modern term that I'm using to describe a very ancient tradition. So don't be fooled by the term. There is no single word that can be used to describe my religion. And I certainly don't follow the verbatim dogma of Gerald Gardner who coined the term "Wiccan" when he presented "Witchcraft" to the United States Government for their approval to have it officially recognized as a valid religion.

~~~~

In short, there is really no way that I can describe my religion to you in a way that you could say, "Ah ha, I understand".

No, if you think you understand I'm sure you don't.

My religion is quite complex and it took me several years to develop it to its current state. It's also in a state of constant growing, just like me. My religion is as dynamic as I am.

Do I "make it up" as I go along? Well, yes, I do. That's an integral part of what it is. It's a psychic connection with the cosmos and therefore it's dynamic. It's not static. It's not dogma that someone else wrote. It's a psychic connection with the cosmos.

That's really the only way I know how to put it into words.

~~~~~

Do I care whether anyone else "believes" in my "religion"?

No, not really. Some people do understand it, and I'm thankful to be able to share my experiences with them. But other than that I have no need for anyone else to condone or believe in my religion.

But I would appreciate it if they would simply recognize that it's right for me and quit accusing me of "rejecting God" if I don't go back to believing the the Hebrew picture of God.

I'm never going back to the Hebrew picture of God.

That's never going to happen.

As far as I'm concerned, the rumors about a man named "Jesus" were most likely sparked by some Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva.

I don't believe the outrageous claims of those rumors. And that's my position on that.

If you like that story, then more power to you. But don't beat me over the head with it. Don't accuse me of rejecting God just because I don't believe the claims that Jesus was the son of Yahweh.

The Jews themselves didn't buy into those claims.

And neither did many prominent and obviously intelligent scientists.

Albert Einstein rejected even Judaism.

Here's what he had to say:

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty." - Albert Einstein

"A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism." - Albert Einstein

"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive." - Albert Einstein

~~~~~

Cowboy wrote:

Why view things in such a hateful way as you do abra?

I don't view things in such a hateful way Cowboy.

I merely point out why I don't accept that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of a God who requires blood sacrifices for salvation.

Apparently that's what you "hate".

~~~~

But what you can't seem to understand is that when you renounce all other spiritual picture of God you are spreading hatred to everyone who doesn't buy into the Christian picture.

So you're upset that I do the same thing to you that you do to everyone else. Only you do it to a far more extreme degree than I do.

~~~~

I at least acknowledge that you have a viable and real relationship with God through your religious beliefs.

I don't need to believe that the actual stories are true in order to recognize that you are sincere in your desire to know God. And I have no reason to believe that any truly righteous God would reject your sincere desires to know God.

So I accept the TRUTH of your sincere relationship with God.

Now all I ask is that you accept the TRUTH of my sincere relationship with God through Wicca.

But you FLATLY REFUSE to do that.

You continue to hold out that if I'm not worshiping God through Jesus then I do not have a relationship with God.

~~~~~

So who's spreading the hate here Cowboy?

I acknowledge the sincerity and reality of your relationship with God.

You flatly refuse to acknowledge the sincerity and reality of my relationship with God.

~~~~~~

The religion that you have chosen to worship forces you to become a religious bigot and spread hatred in the form of religious bigotry.

But then you try to turn that on me, and claim that this hate is emanating from me.

It's not.

It's coming directly from your very own religious bigotry.

That's the TRUTH, and I don't know what else to say about it.

Until you can respect and acknowledge my sincere and real relationship with God there really isn't anything I can do about it.

I already give that to you!

I'm just waiting for you to return the same love.

But you FLATLY REFUSE to do that.

You continue to hold out that if I'm not worshiping God through Jesus then I do not have a relationship with God.

I don't view things in such a hateful way Cowboy.

I merely point out why I don't accept that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of a God who requires blood sacrifices for salvation.

Apparently that's what you "hate".

~~~~

But what you can't seem to understand is that when you renounce all other spiritual picture of God you are spreading hatred to everyone who doesn't buy into the Christian picture.

So you're upset that I do the same thing to you that you do to everyone else. Only you do it to a far more extreme degree than I do.

~~~~

I at least acknowledge that you have a viable and real relationship with God through your religious beliefs.

I don't need to believe that the actual stories are true in order to recognize that you are sincere in your desire to know God. And I have no reason to believe that any truly righteous God would reject your sincere desires to know God.

So I accept the TRUTH of your sincere relationship with God.

Now all I ask is that you accept the TRUTH of my sincere relationship with God through Wicca.

But you FLATLY REFUSE to do that.

You continue to hold out that if I'm not worshiping God through Jesus then I do not have a relationship with God.

~~~~~

So who's spreading the hate here Cowboy?

I acknowledge the sincerity and reality of your relationship with God.

You flatly refuse to acknowledge the sincerity and reality of my relationship with God.

~~~~~~

The religion that you have chosen to worship forces you to become a religious bigot and spread hatred in the form of religious bigotry.

But then you try to turn that on me, and claim that this hate is emanating from me.

It's not.

It's coming directly from your very own religious bigotry.

That's the TRUTH, and I don't know what else to say about it.

Until you can respect and acknowledge my sincere and real relationship with God there really isn't anything I can do about it.

I already give that to you!

I'm just waiting for you to return the same love.

You're spreading hateful lies again Abra. I have never once said you do not have a relationship with God. I know not of your relationship with God, nor do I wish to know that, for that is between you and God. If you have a relationship with God, that is great to hear. Why take a discussion so personal? We're discussing things here, not attacking one another, not accusing one another, not renouncing another's beliefs, just merely discussing. And again just to make sure we're clear on this and it's not being misinterpreted, I know not of your relationship with God. Nor is it any of my business. Nor do I renounce any belief you may have, just I believe not in it for I believe in what Jesus taught. So please, keep your cool and stay collected in the discussion. No one's saying theirs is bigger then someone elses "figuratively speaking". We're just expressing and discussing our own personal beliefs. That is why I've said when you renounce another's belief, please inform on why exactly you're doing as such and express your belief on the subject at hand. Not just renouncing someone's beliefs, that's not much "discussing".

Actually Abra, no one is telling you what to believe here. Everyone is fine with you believing what you wish. We do love you and respect your belief. We may or may not believe the same as you do but we respect that you do.

mg wrote:

I wish to publicly confess that I have no problem with your choice to become of the belief of Wiccan. I have several friends who are Wiccan and we get along spendedly without ever attacking the others belief. I do not believe this way myself but wish to publicly confess that you have every right to believe what you wish. I pray that you never feel that I wish to attack this belief. My belief has taught me not to attack anothers belief system.

mg wrote:

Abra we are cool with what you choose to believe. That is your business. For some reason you are thinking this as an attack of some kind and we are trying to tell you no, we are cool with you believing what you wish.

I already know that I have a right to believe what I wish.

I don't need your public confession on that.

I respect that you have a valid and real relationship with God through your religious beliefs.

That's what I would like to hear from you.

If you can't say that, then it's meaningless to confess that I have a right to believe whatever I wish. Everyone already knows that.

~~~~

By the way, it's untrue that I attack the beliefs of others.

These religious debates have been going on for centuries mg. They don't need to become personal unless you chose to make them personal.

The Christian religion claims to speak for the creator of all humanity. That automatically gives ALL HUMANS the right to challenge those claims.

Moreover, when people preach and proselytize Christianity claiming that it's the only true way to God they are automatically renouncing all other religious faiths and religions.

So that's an automatic attack on everyone else's belief.

If you go around preaching that Jesus is the "only way" to God, then you are indeed attacking all other religious beliefs via that very claim right there. You are automatically renouncing the validity of all other religions.

That is built right into Christianity. There's no escaping it.

The Christian religion claims to speak for the creator of all humanity. That automatically gives ALL HUMANS the right to challenge those claims.

Moreover, when people preach and proselytize Christianity claiming that it's the only true way to God they are automatically renouncing all other religious faiths and religions.

So that's an automatic attack on everyone else's belief.

If you go around preaching that Jesus is the "only way" to God, then you are indeed attacking all other religious beliefs via that very claim right there. You are automatically renouncing the validity of all other religions.

That is built right into Christianity. There's no escaping it.

Well, that's cool with me.

Let's see how long this lasts.

Abra said:



And this is exactly why Abra challenges Christianity.

If Christians would say, "I believe this is true...or... this is my belief, and my faith..." you will find a lot less challenges coming back at you.

But most Christians state that what they believe is the gospel truth, and they admonish others if they challenge or disagree. They accuse you of "attacking" them personally if you question or attack the doctrines of their belief.

Because I sometimes read tarot cards, this automatically makes me, in their eyes, a servant of the devil and worshiper of Satan. Because of what they read in a 2000 year old out-dated religious doctrine practiced by a brutal evil empire.(Rome)

And because I dare to challenge the existence of King David and Abraham and the so-called "Jewish" people as the "chosen people of God" this automatically makes me a "Jew hater" or "anti-Semitic."

I challenge information. I request evidence. How dare I?