If we simply accept that there are different rituals but each religion
teaches ethical behavior in different ways and none of the religions
is better or more noble or more virtuous than another then all the
problems go away. Even Abra's. But he will still have to deal with
those impure thoughts. We can't help him with that.

I suspected all along you had personal "issues".



Gives Abra a hug ~ (((Abra)))

It is written in Matthew that Jesus claimed that he will deny men before his father if they deny him before men:


Matt.10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

This is a verse that Christian proselytizers and evangelists often turn to in an effort to try to claim that Jesus will turn his back on anyone who refuses to believe in him.

Their purpose in pointing out this verse it to make an effort to instill in the non-believer an idea that to merely refuse to believe in Jesus is "denial" of Jesus and is therefore justification for Jesus to refute them in like manner.

In other words, the claim is that if a person refuses to believe in "Jesus" or "God" they are in essence condemning themselves and they have been WARNED fairly!

Of course this doesn't stand up to rational thinking anyway. But the proselytizers who love to spread condemnation in the name of Jesus love this verse because it appears to give them a scriptural verse that they can use to condemn people in Jesus' name whilst simultaneously claiming that Jesus is washing his hands of the whole affair like Pilate did to him.

However, there is a major problem with these words of Jesus. As the story progresses Jesus himself does not live up to his own words here.

When he is finally crucified and hanging on the cross these stories have Jesus making the following statement:

Luke.23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

These people are crucifying Jesus for blaspheme, blatantly denying him before men, and what does Jesus do? He pleads with his heavenly father to forgive them.

This is in direct opposition to his previous stance that he would deny anyone who denies him. Here is is attempting to plead with the Father that these men should be forgiven anyway since they "know not what they do".

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This is no trivial matter here.

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At best it shows that Jesus doesn't even honor his own statements with conviction. He had previously stated that he would deny those who deny him before men. Yet here he is pleading a case of ignorance for these people who are crucifying him.

That's a major inconsistency of his WORD. Apparently he doesn't keep his very own word. Whether it's in a good way, or a bad way is irrelevant. The bottom line is that he doesn't stick to what he had said he would do.

Moreover, looking at this bigger picture in full context of the overall story as it is being played out we can clearly see that if Jesus was willing to give non-believers who publicly humiliated him, denied him, and ultimately crucified him and killed, FORGIVENESS on the grounds that these people "know not what they do", then how much more would Jesus be willing to forgive decent folks who simply don't believe in him for sincere and heartfelt reasons?

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The very idea that Jesus would deny or condemn anyone for not believing in him simply does not follow from these stories.

If anything, we can see that Jesus is an extreme push-over and would rather renege on anything he might have previously said in an effort to forgive people no matter how dastardly they might behave or deny him before men.

It's right there IN THE STORY!

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So the very idea that Jesus would ever "deny" anyone or condemn anyone for merely not believing in him is nonsense. Clearly a person can deny him before men, humiliate him, nail him to a pole, and ultimately kill him and he's still willing to testify on their behalf and argue a case for them before the Father asking that they be forgiven for they know not what they do.

So this very idea that non-believers will automatically be rejected by Jesus simply doesn't jive with the story.

According to this story, Jesus will forgive everyone who doesn't believe in him no matter how nasty or rude or physically abusive they become.

The implication by Christian proselytizers who say that it's extremely important that a person believe that Jesus was the son of God simply isn't true even according to this story, because this story has Jesus himself serving as the ultimate example that he will not condemn anyone, nor deny anyone. At least certainly not on the grounds that they didn't believe in him!

So there we have a proof positive of this. An Undeniable Truth that comes right out of this very story itself.

Christian proselytizers and evangelists who claim that it's important to believe in Jesus are simply wrong. This story has Jesus himself clearly exhibiting behavior that vividly shows otherwise. In this story Jesus will not deny those who deny him before men. Clearly that verse was either a lie by Matthew, or a mistake made by Jesus. Or perhaps Jesus merely changed his mind. But whatever the case may be he didn't honor those words. And so any attempt to hold that verse up as being "dependable" is futile, because Jesus himself violated those very words when he asked the Father to forgive them for they know not what they do. He did not deny them before his father like he had previously said he would.

So there's a major Undeniable Truth and Contradiction in words attributed to Jesus right there. He said he would deny those who denied him, but when the time came he didn't keep those words.

Keep searching Abra and it will come to ya.. Blessings of Shalom..Miles

The people who crucified Jesus did not believe he was the son of God, the King of the Jews, or any divine messiah. They denied him before men as they were crucifying him and mocking him.

Yet Jesus asked his Father to forgive them for they know not what they do, thus violating his own previous statement that he would deny those who deny him.

So the whole thing is grossly flawed. Jesus' own actions and words fly in the very face of his previous words.

Jesus's words are flawed because he spoke in parables, the teller of a parable can make the parable mean anything they choose or change the meaning of a parable at an instant

Didn't Peter deny Jesus before Men not once but three times ...but did Jesus deny Peter to the Father once

I dont know, I havent been with Jesus when he discussed Peter with the Father,,,lol

MsHarmony...in that case try the bible ...simply look in one and the answer shall be revealed if Jesus denied Peter to The Father

nah, since the beginning was the word, if thats true, I doubt any one book could have an all inclusive record of every thing that Jesus spoke to The Father about,,,

MsHarmony....all you have to do is use simple logic....simply check in the bible and see if Jesus had any futher communication or mention anything about Peter or to Peter after Peter denied him to Man three times ...surely this information would be in the bible

are any of Jesus , post crucifixion conversations with God,,,,in the bible?


as I said, quite irrational to believe any one book could honestly contain all conversations of any two people, let alone two who have always existed,,,

try finding out if Jesus said anything about Peter getting to Heaven or not getting to Heaven ...would that not then be an indication that Jesus did or didn't deny Peter to the Father ...

MsHarmony..I know I'm asking a lot from you but you may have to actually look in the bible to find this answer

why are we discussing peter

because of the very first line on the very first post on the very first page presented by the very first poster of this thread ...it applies to Peter

MsHarmony...if you are going to debate...then you have to try and stay focus to the major details pertaining to the topic

IM quite aware how to debate, ,this is the first line of the first page by the first poster of this thread

It is written in Matthew that Jesus claimed that he will deny men before his father if they deny him before men


so,, why are we discussing Peter?

jeez...what you got short term memory loss ...

didn't Peter deny Jesus before Men .....yes or no

come on I know you're steamed but enough of the silly reindeer games

more like bored, and tired

peter denied him three times, as Jesus had prophecied he would