Yes, I've heard that one before too. But in all honesty MorningSong that doesn't help a thing.

For one thing who would he have been talking to then when he said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"?

I see no sense in any God designing a universe where he ends up having to have himself nailed to a pole so he can forgive the souls that he created.

If you saw an engineer who designed a car that would only run if he was nailed to the hood you probably wouldn't think he was very bright. Well, the same thing should hold true for a God who designs a creation that way.

There's no way I'm buying into this story. Period.

But hey, if it works for you, more power to you.

Place yourself in the role of God for a few minutes.

How would you create your flegeling creation?

Blindly robotic or with a free will to choose.

Would you establish a connection and commune with your creation?
If your creation "sees" you as their father,
Would you reward those who try to emmulate you?
If so, how would you reward them?
What rewards could you possibly give them?

What would you do for your creation?

Then, also .... what would you do if your creation ultimately
rejects you? Not that they simply reject you, but go out of their way to convince your other creations to reject you as well.
Would you punish them all or the perpetrator? If so, how would you punish them?

You being the creator and "father" of your creation ... have the
last word and ultimate choice.
How would you reward obedience and punish disobedience?

I have some answers.

Go on then and tell us what you'd do.

Like Kleisto suggests, what would you do?

~~~~~

I have answers to your questions myself, but they are clearly not simple answers. And one of the reason they are not simple is because we have no single "model" for God. Or to put that another way, we actually have several models for God. So there would be different responses for the different kinds of God that we might actually be.

You say;
"Place yourself in the role of God for a few minutes.

Which God?

A totally independent egotistical God who designs a universe via his specific plan?

Or a pantheistic God who becomes manifest as the universe?

These are two totally different concepts of a "God". And therefore the choices I might make could be radically different.

For the sake of brevity I'll pass on describing what I might do as a pantheistic God for not, and address how I might behave if I'm an indvidual egotistical God setting out to create "new spirits". (i.e. a God similar to the Hebrew God of Abraham)

~~~~~~

You ask;
How would you create your flegeling creation?

Blindly robotic or with a free will to choose.


Well, if I'm hoping to create new "spirits" that are just as REAL as myself, then yes I would want them to have a free will of their own. That would be the whole point to the creation then.

But then comes the question of why I'm doing this?

Am I deficient in some way myself and NEED company?
Am I creating this creation to satisfy my own NEEDS?
Or am I creating this creation for the sake of the spirits that I am creating?

I would need to know what the situation is there, as well. However, in the long haul that may not make a huge difference in how I would create them and mentor them anyway. But I still think that my motives for creating them should be known and understood, especially by me if I'm the creator. I should know precisely why I'm doing this, lest I be unsure myself.

But, yes, Let's assume that I'm going to create sentient free spirits.

~~~~~

You ask;
Would you establish a connection and commune with your creation?


Absolutely, and in no uncertain terms. There would be no ambiguity, or doubt whatsoever of my existence. I would be available to speak with each and every one of my children individually.

I simply wouldn't create more spirits than I could mentor individually, that would be irresponsible on my part.

I also wouldn't put them in a dog-eat-dog world as an example of how things should be naturally. I would create disease that could make them sick and unhealthy.

I basically wouldn't do anything that I could not JUSTIFY in a conversation with them.

You ask;
If your creation "sees" you as their father,
Would you reward those who try to emmulate you?


Why would want them to try to emulate me?

I thought the whole idea was that I wanted to create spirits who have their own FREE WILL, and not robots who just want to emulate me?

Are you changing the plan before we even get underway?

You ask;
If so, how would you reward them?


I most certainly wouldn't reward them for trying to emulate me. I also would not offer them reward for good behavior. I would expect them to be good for their own sake and for the sake of those around them. Their "reward" for being good would be the goodness that they themselves create.

You ask;
What rewards could you possibly give them?


I just explained that. Goodness for goodness sake. That's the only reward they need to understand.

You ask;
What would you do for your creation?


Everything I possibly could. Especially in areas where they could not do for themselves. In areas where they can do for themselves I would attempt to instill in them a sense of creativity, responsibility, and productivity.

The MAIN thing I would do for them is to MENTOR them in the very best way that I possibly could. If the assumption is that I'm all-wise and all-intelligent, then I should be able to mentor them "perfectly". I should be able to answer any question they have with precisely the correct response to help them understand whatever it is they are concerned about.

You ask;
Then, also .... what would you do if your creation ultimately
rejects you? Not that they simply reject you, but go out of their way to convince your other creations to reject you as well.
Would you punish them all or the perpetrator? If so, how would you punish them?


You've got multiple questions there.

What would I do if masses of them just innately rejected me?

I would consider myself to be a very POOR creator of "spirits". Or potentially question what I'm doing wrong that makes me so undesirable in their eyes.

If that many people are rejecting me, the problem is probably with me.

Don't forget also, that if they are rejecting me I could simply ask them what it is that they are upset about. Then I could either try to explain to them why things need to be that way, or I could potentially take their suggestions and consider changing whatever it is they are so distraught over.

In your second scenario where one person is attempting to turn everyone against me, again, I would take that one person aside and discuss with them what it is that they are so upset about.

If, as a God I could not comprehend their mindset, then I would clearly be limited in my ability to understand these spirits that I've created. That brings up grave questions concerning the issue of whether I even KNOW what I'm doing by creating spirits in the first place.

Am I rolling dice when I create spirits?

If so them I'm a "Gambling God". I'm far less than "perfect" and I have serious limitations and flaws of my own.

This question of what to do with "defective" spirits is a serious question. Should I BLAME them for being "defective"?

If I'm a "Gambling God" who can't even assure that I can create benevolent spirits, then why should I blame the defective spirits for their defects?

This is a very serious question, that would trouble even ME as this CREATOR GOD.



You ask;
You being the creator and "father" of your creation ... have the
last word and ultimate choice.
How would you reward obedience and punish disobedience?


Like I had previously said. I wouldn't "reward obedience". In fact, I wouldn't want anyone to just "blindly" obey me. That would be utterly sick and meaningless. May as well create the ROBOTS if that was my goal.

On the contrary I would want them to "Understand" and become "enlightened" to how goodness for goodness sake is beneficial to all, including their very own self.

I would try my best to created spirits who have the capacity to comprehend this. And if they don't have the capacity to comprehend this then perhaps I have FAILED to create viable spirits.

Punishing defective spirits would be insane. If they are defective it can only be because I did not create them with the necessary comprehension capabilities. And that could only be due to my own ineptitude at creating spirits. Thus I would totally responsible for any and all "defective spirits".

Like I say, if that's the state of my "creation" then I would be nothing more than a "Gambling God" tossing dice in the form of human spirits. It would certainly be wrong of me to "punish" any defective spirits.

How to handle them would be a huge question. Am I not powerful enough to CURE THEM? If not, then for everyone sake, including the sake of the defective spirits, I would need to un-create them. But this would in no way be a form of "punishment". No wailing or gnashing of teeth, not hellfire furnace, no "everlasting punishment".

Just an apology to them for my inability to have created them correctly in the first place, and then the most peaceful and painless spiritual euthanasia that I could possibly provide for them.

And the ineptitude would be on ME, as the "Gambling God", who tosses dice when creating human spirits.

~~~~~

Like I say, this is the picture of an egotistical God who creates new spirits. (i.e. the Abrahamic type of God)

However, there is a totally different view of God that actually becomes the manifestation of life. That is a WHOLE different PICTURE. Totally different answers to these questions because there are no "human spirits" that are not also ultimately just a facet of "God". The universe is just God having a dream. That allows for some pretty bizarre stuff (like a dog-eat-dog world) without introducing any major conflicts with God's abilities or benevolence.

Life is but a dream, and none of the atrocities that appear to have occurred were "real". Names have been changed to protect the innocent, but in the end it was all just a dream. No real animals were harmed in the making of this dream.

You say;
"Place yourself in the role of God for a few minutes.

I always do.

~~~~~~

You ask;
How would you create your flegeling creation?

Blindly robotic or with a free will to choose.


Free will of course.


You ask;
Would you establish a connection and commune with your creation?


Yes. The connection would be a voice within them, a creative spark.

You ask;
If your creation "sees" you as their father,
Would you reward those who try to emmulate you?


Rewards would come to them automatically via the law of vibration, the universal law of creation.



You ask;
If so, how would you reward them?


By giving them anything they asked for via the universal law of creation. By allowing them to have the power to create their own experiences.


You ask;
What rewards could you possibly give them?


Their reward is the power to create for themselves anything they desired.

You ask;
What would you do for your creation?


Watch over them, inspire them, speak to those who would listen. Give them as many chances to get it right as they need, let them live many lives.


You ask;
Then, also .... what would you do if your creation ultimately
rejects you? Not that they simply reject you, but go out of their way to convince your other creations to reject you as well.
Would you punish them all or the perpetrator? If so, how would you punish them?


Their rejection would only be the rejection of their own God given power. If they reject that, they will simply be powerless.



You ask;
You being the creator and "father" of your creation ... have the
last word and ultimate choice.
How would you reward obedience and punish disobedience?


There would be no rules given to them to live by or to "obey" or disobey." How can one grant "free will" and then make rules?

There would only be the universal laws of creation, and vibration.

The consequences for all thoughts and actions would manifest as so requested by them in their lives, for they are like me.

They are creators. They are Gods in training.

They will make mistakes, but they will always be given the chance to begin again.

Eternity is ours.

Abra, I was going to ask the same thing, "which god are we referring to?"

I would not have been so wordy though

Also, I would have said how does one put themselves into the place of an all powerful being of proportions that our mind cannot even comprehend anyway?

We can see how the men who wrote the bible and the quaran failed at their attempts to be in the mind of a god.

I think that is a really key issue right there.

Again, starting at the top and stating: Place yourself in the role of God for a few minutes.

Just starting with that single thought right there we must ask. What is this God capable of? Anything?

If so, then I would definitely give my creation as many chances as they need to learn. I would have infinite patience and offer them infinitely many lives. After all, if I'm God, then with me, all things are possible.

So why limit people to a single short lifespan where they can only have a mere sip of life? How could they possibly be expected to make wise choices in such short order? Especially those who die young?

What's the rush to judgment?

There are a lot of assumptions going on concerning the limitations that many people place on "God".

If I was as limited in my abilities as the Christians limit their God, then I wouldn't have a lot of choices. I'd basically be stuck having to do things the way that Christians think they should be done because I'd be totally powerless to do any better.

But that wouldn't be representative of a very powerful or unlimited God. On the contrary, that would be an extremely limited and powerless vision of a God.

A God who has no real choices at all. A God who is stuck having to put up with extreme limitations.

Well, I agree, but at the very least, if we're going to acknowledge that this God is supposedly "All-Powerful", then we can at least imagine the best scenarios possible, and then just assume that any truly unbound all-powerful being could even do better than that.

I've said this often. No matter how prefect I can imagine a God to be, I must necessarily fail. And God must be even better than that, because of our mere definition and expectations of what God should be (i.e. limitless in power and creativity)

So no matter how wise I imagine God to be She must necessarily be even wiser than that.

And I agree with your sentiments:


Talk about creating an image of a truly powerless and lame God. The Hebrews get the award for being the masters of that! For crying out loud they have this God sacrificing his own son at the bloody hands of men. That's pretty darn lame right there.

This God supposedly speaks to a bunch of powerless nobodies from a cloud, but then doesn't say a word to the people in AUTHORITY?

Where is there any wisdom in that?

Logic is definitely a high hurdle to overcome in those two religions.

You would speak with all, but the real problem is, who really listens.

I don't think that's an issue at all.

If you're an all-powerful God who can do anything. Including speaking to people from clouds, burning bushes, or via angelical messengers. Then you could at least determine who is refusing to listen.

I don't buy into these religious zealots and evangelists that claim they speak for "God", or that they know of a doctrine that supposedly speaks for God.

They haven't convinced me. In fact, in most cases I see gross hypocrisy and extreme bigotry associated with such people. And it says right in the text that they are pointing that false prophets can be recognized by their evil works.

So I certainly have no reason to believe anything from any religions that have a history of such extreme violence, ignorance, and hypocrisy.

Therefore if a "God entity" wants me to know something, it's only true recourse is to communicate directly with me on a personal basis. And according to those religious texts it's perfectly within God's power to engage in such conversations. The Biblical God is said to have spoken to Moses via a burning bush. He spoke with Noah instructing him on how to build the Ark. He spoke with Joshua at the Battle of Jericho. He spoke with Job. He spoke with a bunch of peasants from a cloud in the New Testament. Jesus himself appeared before Saul converting him into Paul.

This God also communicated with Mary via a host of angels.

There's no reason why this God shouldn't be able able to have a direct conversation with anyone. Or at least appear in their dreams in an extremely vivid and convincing way.

There's just no excuse for any lack of communication.

And you can't claim that someone isn't "listening" if they aren't even being spoken to. You've got to get their attention first in no uncertain terms, make sure the communication has been made and understood. Only then could you claim that they "aren't listening".

You can't have hypocritical religious zealots preaching absurd nonsense and blame people for not listening to them. You can't have an ancient male-chauvinistic society writing stories about a "God" and blame people for not believing in their utterly ignorant and often quite absurd stories.

If a God wants someone to LISTEN to him, then it's his responsibility to be sure that he communicates with them directly without ambiguity. Anything short of that is totally irresponsible.

Therein lies the problem.... even with human to human communication.

WOW...it's amazing how much I agree with your take on this jeanniebean!

fireflysgirl,

COOL!

Same here.

Too bad we weren't all taught from the Jeanniebean scriptures:


Jeanniebean 12:30 There would be no rules given to them to live by or to "obey" or disobey." How can one grant "free will" and then make rules?

Jeanniebean 12:31 There would only be the universal laws of creation, and vibration.

Jeanniebean 12:32 The consequences for all thoughts and actions would manifest as so requested by them in their lives, for they are like me.

Jeanniebean 12:33 They are creators. They are Gods in training..

That is far more inspirational than telling everyone they are hopeless sinners who are in dire need of repentance from their evil ways.

Moreover, this would also get people asking questions about the universal laws of creation and vibration. And that would lead to positive uplifting and constructing behavior as everyone strives to become a good little God.

This little light of mine. I'm gonna let it shine! Without any unnecessary burdens of derogatory oppression, negativity, and unwarranted accusations of being unworthy of God if I refuse to cower down to the religious bigotry of zealots.

I like it Jeannie. It has the makings of a profoundly positive spirituality.

God told me to say those things.

gods in training.
That we are.


Cheers!