Yes, that's what I'm talking about. A period of time that only happened in the imaginations of Christian haters. Historians have proved that no such thing happened.

I have much to say about the biblical stories of the Canaanites.

First off it doesn't match up with your original wild west story at all. The Canaanites were already well-established on the land, it was the Israelites who came and murdered them. So who are the murderers in this case? Obviously it was the Israelites.

In order for your original scenario to match up with this one you'd have to ask people if they they would be willing to murder entire families to take over their lands simply because they believe they hold superior moral values over the people living on that land.

You claim that the Canaanites practice child sacrifices. But if the Bible is just man made history that's probably what the Israelites wanted people to believe so they could justify killing them.

When I look at these stories from the perspective of a the eyes of God I see a totally different picture.

First off let's assume that the Canaanites truly were morally bankrupt and "evil" by choice. An entire culture in which every individual has freely chosen to knowingly reject their true creator in favor of worshiping false Gods and appeasing false Gods with blood sacrifices of children.

That already doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone who has knowingly rejected their "true creator" run off to worship make-pretend God's that they KNOW are false?

Clearly, there's already a problem. These people can't be knowingly rejecting their "true creator" if they are already trying to worship what they believe to be their "true creator" via blood sacrifices of their very own children.

So the story fails. It's clearly a made-up fable that wasn't even very well thought out.

Secondly, God supposedly gave these Canaanites about 400 years (over 4 generations) to change their mind and "repent" of their rejection of him.

Well, excuse me, but if during that time these Canaanites were continuing to sacrifice their own children to false Gods, then why didn't God simply make these people sterile?

Let those who are still alive have a chance to repent until they naturally die, but the culture as a whole is doomed within a single generation because they can no longer procreate and conceive any children. Problem solved.

In the meantime, what does the Biblical God do?

The Biblical God allows these Canaanites to move in on land that God himself had PROMISED to the Israelites. The "Promised Land".

So I'm supposed to believe that God can't even deliver a piece of pristine real estate that isn't already occupied by evil thugs?

God had commanded the Isaelites that "Thou Shalt not Kill". So why bother leading them to a "Promised Land" where the very first thing God is going to direct them to do is to KILL every man, woman, and child of another culture with no mercy?

That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Especially when I have already offered a very clean and natural way for ridding the world of the Canaanites. Just make them sterile and they will die off naturally.

Then they wouldn't be living on the promised land in the first place, and God wouldn't need to instruct his people to kill anyone thus conflicting with his original desire and commandment that they shalt not kill.

So, in all honestly Spider, all of these stories only serve to prove to me beyond any shadow of a doubt that these stories cannot be anything more than the lame fables of men. They simply don't contain the kind of wisdom that I would expect from an all-wise God.

On the contrary, all they amount to is the HISTORICAL RECORD of a culture that won a war when they invaded the homeland of another culture and then they justified it in the name of God claiming that the other culture was evil anyway.

In terms of the behavior we should expect from mortal men these stories make PERFECT SENSE.

In terms of the behavior we should expect from a truly all-wise God, these stories make absolutely NO SENSE AT ALL. None whatsoever.

So what should we conclude?

We should conclude that these stories are nothing more than the stories of men, and they have absolutely nothing at all to do with any all-wise God.

It's crystal clear to me.

Yes and so? I have no problem with another religions ritual sex, ritual blood-letting. Child sacrifice might not appeal to me, but lets be honest. The OT says to kill your child if they disagree with you. So what makes that any different then killing one's child to build a house? There's also the fact that if one really gets into the Ras Shamra tablets, it was less about Ba'al then one of the other Gods, Moloch.

A lot of it is still the fact that the Israelites where happily joining in instead of using self-control. Much like America. We can't control our own selves and our incessant need to interfere in other countries and then we become enraged when another country attacks us because we couldn't leave them alone.

Your initial question was a fairly straight forward, "if they attack you/your family, then is killing justified?". Now, if you asked, "If you joined in on some various raping and killing, and then the gang turned around and came for you and your family, would you be justified". My answer would have to be no at that point.

Surveys clearly show that the vast majority of religious people know very little about what is in their religious doctrines and can't answer even the simplest questions about them correctly.

So the fact is that the vast majority of religious people do not think very deeply about the religious doctrines that they claim to follow.

This is especially true of Christians. The vast majority of Christians have simply "accepts Jesus as their Savior", and that's all they need to know about it. Sure, they're aware of things like the Ten Commandment, etc. But they aren't aware of all the details. Moreover, even if they do study the Bible they are told not to question "God's Wisdom" so they try their best to figure out ways to justify anything they don't understand, and if they can't justify it then they just throw their hands in the air and say, "Well God probably has a reasonable explanation that I'll learn of after I die"

That's the mentality. In fact, that's even the mentality of the people who study these scriptures diligently.

Moreover, you've already shown us the fallacy in thinking that any of these people have clue. You said, (Christians, Jews and Muslims) believe that they can sin accidentally?

Who cares what they can be led to believe?

Clearly they don't agree with each other in major ways. Neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe the Jesus was "The Christ" yet the Christians swear that he was.

So clearly these people can be lead to believe just about anything.

I really don't care what any of these people CLAIM to believe the truth is in the pudding.

If the whole idea behind these religions is that God gave us FREE WILL, and it's OUR CHOICE of whether or not we want to OBEY GOD, and we will be JUDGED based on what we CHOOSE via our FREE WILL then my conclusions are necessarily correct.

It would make no sense to be JUDGED on things that you didn't CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSE to do via your FREE WILL.

It's doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

So if anyone believes they can sin by 'accident' then they simply aren't paying attention to the fundamental premises of the whole fable.

It's an absurd notion to claim that you "sinned" by accident.

It you did it by accident (i.e. without consciously CHOOSING to do so), then you couldn't possibly JUDGED to be GUILTY of having purposely CHOOSE to "sinned". (i.e. It wouldn't have been an intentional CHOICE executed via FREE WILL).

So yes, perhaps I have put MORE THOUGHT into this religion that some other people.

Let's not forget now. I'm not alone in these views. Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan and many of the greatest minds of all of humanity have come to similar conclusions.

So I'm in great company!

If you told Jesus that you have accepted him as your LORD and savior, yet you continually live your life in a way that you feel does not conform to his wishes of how you should behave, then how can you say that you have accepted him as your LORD?

Can you answer me that simple question?

"Laymen"? Since when did you become ordained?

And does your Fundamentialist 'research' show that people regularly died at young ages of simple things like dental abscesses.

Seems to me that a truly loving God would have sent texts on general dentistry instead of wierd ramblings like Revelations.

The Church's transgessions during those times hangs like a millstone around its neck. It was only when humans threw off the yoke of superstition that it really started to live up to its potential. Say what you want and spin it anyway you want, but pointing fingers at other religions of the time only solidifies the fact that there are three fingers pointing back at the history of yours.

-Kerry O.

Truly.

The very idea that a sentient personified God would have conveyed the things in the biblical scriptures and totally ignored truly important information and wisdom and is essential for simple things like health, makes no sense to me at all.




And this addresses a similar point.

Where does the Bible address the possibility that someone might actually be mentally ill? Are we to kill our mentally ill children for disobeying us, when in fact, they simply aren't capable of understanding?

Where is the LINE between mental illness and the outright rebellion of a sane mentally healthy person? The Bible doesn't even consider any such issues. How could it possible be knowledge and wisdom from any God?

There has to be a line between mental illness and the blatant sane rebellion against a judgmental God.

I've said this many times. This world we live in clearly is not designed in a way that is conducive to "Judging" its inhabitants.

They only way the Bible could be true is if every single individual was born with precisely the same level of intelligence, comprehension and mental health. But clearly, that's not the case for humans on this planet.

Thus the very ideology of the Bible fails.

Carl Sagan once said, "This cosmic stage is far too large for the biblical plot."

Of course Dr. Sagan was speaking to the actual universe with billions upon billions of galaxies and stars. Why bother creating all that if God's plan is merely to test to see whether humans are worthy of his heaven?


But the same type of observation applies to the very nature of the physical world. The "Stage" doe not fit the biblical "Plot". If the biblical plot is to assume that everyone has the same ability to comprehend things, and the same level of mental health to be suited for JUDGMENT, then the biblical plot fails, because clearly this isn't true of the world we live in.

Everyone doesn't have the same degree of mental comprehension and everyone isn't in perfect mental health to make sane choices.

In fact, in your original scenario concerning murders and rapists, what have I already suggested? In my opinion anyone who goes around murdering and raping people is already mentally ill. IMHO, their behavior is insane, so it can only mean that they are insane.

Do you honestly expect me to believe that these are sane intelligent people who simply CHOOSE to do these things "sanely"?

That makes no sense to me. They must already have mental handicaps or mental illness of some sort. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing those things in the first place. It's simply not something that intelligent sane people would choose to do, IMHO.

This brings me back to the Canaanites too.

Is the behavior of the Canaanites described in the bible intelligent sane behavior? Is it intelligent and sane to reject a God that you supposedly know is your creator, to go off an appease fictitious Gods that you know to be false?

No of course not. That would be neither intelligent nor sane.

So why "blame" unintelligent insane people as being "sinners" when what they truly need is improved mental health?

Instead of condemning them, a truly wise God who is capable of anything should simply give them whatever medical assistance they require so that they can think clearly and sanely.

So you see, these stories simply don't make any sense.

They are clearly fables that weren't even well thought out.

As I said, arrogance personified.

So in other words, you can't address the topics?

All you can do is make personal accusations?

You never did address the question of why a person would continue to blatantly disobey their "Lord" after they had supposedly accepted him as their "Lord".

Because at that moment we get weak. We wish to please ourselves rather then trying to please the lord. We give into our own lusts and passions. Doesn't make it right, but that's the reason. And that's the reason our lord offers forgiveness. He offers forgiveness for mistakes we make.

People weather they are sane or insane. They know what they should or shouldn't do. They choose not to. They choose to be insane. Weather one is considered sane or not, they still have the capability of doing as they are told. That's all that is needed. If one has the intelligence of even a 5 year old, that is all that is needed.

Just because you make a claim about the world doesn't make it true. All you're doing here is denying that insanity and mental illness exists. You're just in denial of reality.

Yet at the same time you try to claim the following:



So all you're suggesting here is that you must not have the intelligence of a even 5 year old since you continually disobey your Lord by accident.

This is what comes out of your very own logic.

~~~~

I fully understand the fundamental ideas you are grappling with Cowboy. But the truth is that they genuinely don't fit into the biblical picture, nor do they support it.

In all honesty, if you genuinely understood the philosophy of Eastern Mysticism you'd see that it is far more in alignment with your ideals.

~~~~

Nothing you have said here justifies the way that God supposedly dealt with the Canaanites. Nor does it justify that he would allow a situation to arise where he would have to have his chosen people kill the Canaanites, especially when he obviously prefers to teach them not to kill.

Why instruct them to do what he has taught them is wrong? That makes absolutely no sense at all my friend.

I've given a perfect scenario of how God could have dealt with the Canaanites. He could have just made them sterile like I said. Then they would still have a chance to repent until they finally died naturally. There would have been no reason for God to have to ask his choose people to kill them when it's obviously his actual goal to not have them kill.

So my solution to this God's problems are clearly more efficient and thus far more intelligent and wise. And this is why I don't believe in these ancient fables. They don't even represent the wisdom and intelligence that I'm capable of as a mere mortal man, why should I believe that they represent the actions of a supposedly "all-wise" God?

They simply aren't wise tales.

Therefore they must not be from any "all-wise" God.

It's crystal clear. The fables are made up by men. There can be no other conclusion. They simply don't represent "infinite wisdom".

It's as simple as that.

Your logic is dangerous to our society!!!

No, not at all. Because if you were to actually accept my logic you'd see how your idea of a God cannot be made to work.

It's your logic that is dangerous. If there is a perfectly appointed time for everyone to die, then it would be impossible to kill anyone unless it's their perfectly appointed time to die.

Therefore it's your proposal of what God is like that makes no sense.

Based on your logic, if I kill someone I can just say, "Well it must have been their perfectly appointed time to die then".

I'm just showing how absurd your notion is.

You refuse to accept the Awesomeness of Almighty God.

He is Omnipresent, Omniscient,and Omnipotent and you are NOT.

You can never fathom the attributes that He alone possesses.

Your mental capacity is too simple to comprehend the things of God.


What YOU consider "god" is based on your personal figurings(and boy,

are they coming up short!).

Your logic? All the ranting and raving is just

theatrics.

I don't believe people have an appointed time to die. The future is always in motion and is constantly changing based on the decisions we make now. Yes, events can be set in motion that are nearly, if not completely, unchangeable at some point. But, I don't believe in "fate" or pre-determined outcomes.

It only appears to be ranting and ravings to you my dear, because you do not understand.

I'm not complaining about any "God" and I never have.

On the contrary I give God far more power and respect than the ancient Hebrews ever did.

I reject the biblical picture of God because it is clearly an unwise picture. I offer totally reasonable solutions for all the problems that the biblical fables have God supposedly dealing with. And my solutions are far more reasonable than the biblical solutions, IMHO.

And I have tried to explain quite clearly that if I, as a mere mortal man can come up with far better solutions, then clearly these fables can't be about the behavior of any all-wise God. How could I possibly be wiser than God?

In fact, in order to support these fables as they are the Christians truly have no other choice than to ask me to accept the following:

"Well maybe in God's infinite wisdom there is an explanation for what appears to be utterly absurd in the biblical stories"

Well, fine. But all that does is agree with me that the biblical pictures, as they stand, clearly don't appear to be so wise.

I have no problem imagining an infinitely wise and powerful God. But that isn't the issue that I speak to. The issue that I speak to is the issue of ancient fables that are clearly NOT wise, IMHO.

And YES, of course it's my opinion!

But that's why I reject these fables.

I look at them and recognize that they aren't wise, and I conclude that they therefore cannot be the "Word" of any all-wise God.

So you are gravely mistaken if you think that I'm trying to claim that God is unwise. I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that a religion that claims to be the "Word of God" is not wise and therefore must be false, precisely because God is supposed to be infinitely wise, and these fables are not.

Have I said this in enough different ways yet? Or do I need to explain it further?

~~~~

All I'm saying is that if God is infinitely wise, then clearly the biblical stories can't be about God.

That's all I'm saying.

I'm not trying to say that "God" is not wise.

I've never been good at keeping appointments anyway.

So what would happen if I missed my appointment?

Would I be able to call in and make another one?

Or would I be stuck here forever?

You would be stuck in Mingleland forever.

Oh dear!

Now I feel like the rabbit in Alice in Wonderland!



I don't want to miss my appointment!