100% FREE ONLINE DATING
sponsored links
Previous
| Topic: A question on killing | |
|---|---|
|
|
|
My mind is NOT closed! If you could convince me I'd believe you, but I don't see it happening, cause it simply makes no sense. My mind has been opened to see that quite clearly. I'm willing to bet that 90% of what you believe you know about Christianity is false. At least 90%. Have you read any of the Bible to see what Christians really believe for yourself? Have you read "Mere Christianity" or "The Case for Christ"? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
johnboy072472
on
Mon 12/27/10 06:46 AM
|
|
If I have to burn in hell to protect my family from harm... I would do it... No questions about it...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It is funny you bring this up. Having been on a ranch here and there I have learned that not all animals are the same. horses for example. Some are easy to deal with while others I had to smack upside the head with a rock or 2 X 4 to get them to behave. I have had pets that were suppose dot be for food but they turned out to be exceptionally smart like my rabbit Scooter. She did not act like a rabbit. She acted more like a dog. I have had pet rats that were extremely affectionate while others that were little more than snake food to me. I never ever kill an exceptional animal of any kind. There was a cow in Oregon I rode like a horse and she was so over the top tame and tractable while other cattle were just stupid slabs of meat on four hooves. Even my mom's Nubian goats once trained were really good animals to have around. They were hell on poison oak. Even Cats are an animal I take on an individual basis. Some I like. Some I like to use as target practice. I think the saddest thing is how people treat snakes. I have come across rattle snakes in the wild but tome they serve a purpose and as long as I stay out of its way it leaves me alone then we are fine. Most people kill them on sight just becasue it was a snake. Humans are just sick demented creatures for the most part. Heck, I have seen how smart turkeys are first hand just like geese. Animals are smarter than people give them credit for! Still, life is born of decay and death for as sad as that may seem. We even kill plants to eat. Something must die for us to live. Isn't the paradox of life just a hoot to behold? I see this with all animals. People seem threatened if anything has any semblance of humor, or brains. They perceive it as a threat of some sort. I agree about snakes. Actually, any of the reptiles, and even some insects, like spiders. Fortunately, my family really pushed the not killing unless absolutely necessary. I usually have to go remove the snakes if they get into the eggs, or up by the house. Most are just rat snakes, so it's not a big deal. Young snakes are a bit more aggressive, but once I have their heads, they settle. The older snakes have a "ho-hum, ya caught me" attitude. I'll take them out to the very back pasture, and turn them loose. My dad and brother aren't overly snake friendly but they'll holler for me to move them. I personally like snakes, but having had rats and mice as pets, I like them more, and would have a hard time feeding them. I have no problem with the life-death circle. I fully intend on a green burial, wrapped only in a shroud and buried under a cairn of stones. No embalming fluid, no chemicals, so my body can find the critters naturally. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It is very disgusting when people kill animals just because, take the snakes for instance. They won't "hunt" you down. All they are doing is protecting their home, same anyone would do. Just walk away and they won't bother one. No need to kill it just because. Actually, I have been stalked by a black whip snake. It was on the road when I was riding Chance and it ducked off. I rode by and looked back and it popped back up and started following us. I turned the horse around and it turned around and we followed it for a minute before I turned us back around and it turned back around. Rather amusing game for a while, though I'm sure the neighbors thought the horse and I were strange. LOL! |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
My mind is NOT closed! If you could convince me I'd believe you, but I don't see it happening, cause it simply makes no sense. My mind has been opened to see that quite clearly. I'm willing to bet that 90% of what you believe you know about Christianity is false. At least 90%. Have you read any of the Bible to see what Christians really believe for yourself? Have you read "Mere Christianity" or "The Case for Christ"? Well, technically, while I'm not saying opinions by other people and their books isn't a good idea, it's kind of ironic that we have to have alternate interpretations by other people, because "God's word" isn't clear enough. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
My mind is NOT closed! If you could convince me I'd believe you, but I don't see it happening, cause it simply makes no sense. My mind has been opened to see that quite clearly. I'm willing to bet that 90% of what you believe you know about Christianity is false. At least 90%. Have you read any of the Bible to see what Christians really believe for yourself? Have you read "Mere Christianity" or "The Case for Christ"? Well, technically, while I'm not saying opinions by other people and their books isn't a good idea, it's kind of ironic that we have to have alternate interpretations by other people, because "God's word" isn't clear enough. Truly, a religion is in a serious state of failure when it comes down to believers telling non-believers "Well, we understand God's word and you don't!"  And they quote verses from the Bible that tell people to open their ears and open their eyes so they can see "God's truth" But then when you tell them that your eyes and ears are open, and you point out absolute absurdities in the doctrines that no one can justify, then the believers point to other verses that say that God had BLINDED the non-believers from seeing his truth. So now we have a God who plays favorites and supposedly BLINDS people who are trying to seek him, all the while telling them "Seek and ye shall find!"  While I agree that various books and stories are interesting to read, some of them are just so self-contradicting that they aren't truly even worthy of reading, to be quite honest about. Why would I believe in a God who tells me that if I seek God I will find God, yet simultaneously BLINDS me from being able to see that the stories that are supposedly about God makes any sense? That just adds to the total absurdity. That very notion just makes the stories all that much more absurd. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
My mind is NOT closed! If you could convince me I'd believe you, but I don't see it happening, cause it simply makes no sense. My mind has been opened to see that quite clearly. I'm willing to bet that 90% of what you believe you know about Christianity is false. At least 90%. Have you read any of the Bible to see what Christians really believe for yourself? Have you read "Mere Christianity" or "The Case for Christ"? Well, technically, while I'm not saying opinions by other people and their books isn't a good idea, it's kind of ironic that we have to have alternate interpretations by other people, because "God's word" isn't clear enough. Because God's word is Jesus and Jesus is a person, everybody's relationship with the word is different. That's the point of "Mere Christianity", because the majority of Christians agree on the majority of points. There are some points of theology that Christians disagree upon, but those are usually doctrinal and of no import to the central message. It's rare that Christian denominations disagree on anything major and I don't know of any that disagree upon the issue of salvation, except for minor cults like the Westboro Baptists. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Truly, a religion is in a serious state of failure when it comes down to believers telling non-believers "Well, we understand God's word and you don't!" Not to beat a dead horse, but you really do have to *read* the Bible to understand Christianity. Too many non-Christians take your method of picking up unrelated bits and pieces and then claiming that Christianity doesn't make sense. It's the intellectually dishonest and lazy method of rejecting a religion. I could respect someone more if they just outright rejected Christianity while knowing nothing about it, but to falsely claim to have "studied Christianity for nearly 50 years" and then repeatedly and viciously malign a religion with outright lies? I can't respect that at all. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Truly, a religion is in a serious state of failure when it comes down to believers telling non-believers "Well, we understand God's word and you don't!" Not to beat a dead horse, but you really do have to *read* the Bible to understand Christianity. Too many non-Christians take your method of picking up unrelated bits and pieces and then claiming that Christianity doesn't make sense. It's the intellectually dishonest and lazy method of rejecting a religion. I could respect someone more if they just outright rejected Christianity while knowing nothing about it, but to falsely claim to have "studied Christianity for nearly 50 years" and then repeatedly and viciously malign a religion with outright lies? I can't respect that at all. Not to imply that your respect is meaningless to me, but at the same time I don't draw conclusions or hold views specifically to appease your requirements for respect. I make no false claims. I simply speak truth. Over the years here I've given ample specific examples of precisely why I do not see any wisdom in the biblical stories. From your point of view this may appear to be "vicious". However, from my point of view, it's simply the truth. Also your claims that I lie about the religion is itself false. Tell me what I have said about this religion that is a lie? Can you be specific? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Truly, a religion is in a serious state of failure when it comes down to believers telling non-believers "Well, we understand God's word and you don't!" Not to beat a dead horse, but you really do have to *read* the Bible to understand Christianity. Too many non-Christians take your method of picking up unrelated bits and pieces and then claiming that Christianity doesn't make sense. It's the intellectually dishonest and lazy method of rejecting a religion. I could respect someone more if they just outright rejected Christianity while knowing nothing about it, but to falsely claim to have "studied Christianity for nearly 50 years" and then repeatedly and viciously malign a religion with outright lies? I can't respect that at all. Not to imply that your respect is meaningless to me, but at the same time I don't draw conclusions or hold views specifically to appease your requirements for respect. I make no false claims. I simply speak truth. Over the years here I've given ample specific examples of precisely why I do not see any wisdom in the biblical stories. From your point of view this may appear to be "vicious". However, from my point of view, it's simply the truth. Also your claims that I lie about the religion is itself false. Tell me what I have said about this religion that is a lie? Can you be specific? 1. You claim God hates heathens. 2. You claim God with punish "unbelievers" for eternity. 3. You claim all Christians hate homosexuals. 4. You claim God is appeased by blood sacrifices. 5. You call pagan rituals and beliefs "Christian" Those are just a few from the last week or so, if you want proof, look for it yourself because "everyone knows this for a fact, there's no need for me to prove it..." http://mingle2.com/forum/show_posts_by_user/130401 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Truly, a religion is in a serious state of failure when it comes down to believers telling non-believers "Well, we understand God's word and you don't!" Not to beat a dead horse, but you really do have to *read* the Bible to understand Christianity. Too many non-Christians take your method of picking up unrelated bits and pieces and then claiming that Christianity doesn't make sense. It's the intellectually dishonest and lazy method of rejecting a religion. I could respect someone more if they just outright rejected Christianity while knowing nothing about it, but to falsely claim to have "studied Christianity for nearly 50 years" and then repeatedly and viciously malign a religion with outright lies? I can't respect that at all. Not to imply that your respect is meaningless to me, but at the same time I don't draw conclusions or hold views specifically to appease your requirements for respect. I make no false claims. I simply speak truth. Over the years here I've given ample specific examples of precisely why I do not see any wisdom in the biblical stories. From your point of view this may appear to be "vicious". However, from my point of view, it's simply the truth. Also your claims that I lie about the religion is itself false. Tell me what I have said about this religion that is a lie? Can you be specific? Your posts speak for themselves. You lie about Christianity and Christians in almost every post you make. You have frequently lied about your experience with Christianity, claiming to have "studied it for nearly 50 years" and finally admitted that by "study Christianity" you meant "study pop-spirituality and modern mysticism without ever cracking open a Bible except to look up a scripture to take out of context in an attempt to discredit Christianity." I think it's both sad and cruel of you to lie for years to people about your experiences and education in Christianity and you did it solely to appear to have authority in your silly theories and ridiculous belief, but it undoubtedly led people astray who might have been interested in becoming a Christian. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Mon 12/27/10 03:25 PM
|
|
You're wrong on every count Peter:
1. You claim God hates heathens. No I don't. The biblical scriptures make that claim about God. And I've given you verbatim verses from the book of John that shows this clearly. You refuse to acknowledge them. John.3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Hey, if the Bible is supposed to be the word of God, then here you have God saying that to non-believers are condemned already. The only way to squiggle out of it is to refute the Gospel of John as not being the "Word of God". There are other places in the Bible where non-believers are condemned as well, but I've shown one here, and one example is all I need. So clearly the Bible does indeed have God condemning 'heathens' and, as far as I'm concerned to condemn someone is to hate them. 2. You claim God with punish "unbelievers" for eternity. No I don't. The biblical scriptures make that claim about God (or at least many Christian clergy have taken that stance) In fact, Bishop Carlton Pearson was rejected by the Christian clergy who ordained him for suggesting that God came to him in a vision and told him that there is no such thing as eternal hell. So to disagree with this concept get's you booted out of the Christian camp. I can show you verses in the Bible that suggest the possibility of eternal hell. However, I will be the first to agree that they are ambiguous as is everything in the Bible, just the same, it's clearly that many Christian clergy stand behind the concept of an eternal hell. Some people claim that hell was not meant for humans, but the Gospels have Jesus himself implying that humans are in dander of being sent to hell. Matt.18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. So in order to call me a liar, you'd have to also call Jesus a liar, or at least call Matthew a liar. Matt.23 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Threading people with the damnation of hell? Jesus also supposedly said: Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. You can't very well be dead if you're wailing. There are also places where it says that you will suffer fires of hell that can never be quenched. Well, some people take that to mean that you won't be able to cease to exist in hell. I think it also suggests that hell is eternal in Revelations. But I'm certainly not the one who came up with these ideas. I think everyone is fully aware of the idea of being send to Hell. This most certainly isn't a new concept. 3. You claim all Christians hate homosexuals. No, I have never said any such thing. The biblical scriptures make the claim the God hates homosexuality. I shouldn't even need to hunt that verse down. Anyone who wants to claim otherwise would basically be saying that God is cool with homosexuality. 4. You claim God is appeased by blood sacrifices. No I don't. The biblical scriptures make that claim about God. They simply refer to is as "atonement" for sin. Appeasement, atonement? We could argue the semantics on that till the cows come home. 5. You call pagan rituals and beliefs "Christian" No I don't. You're the one who does that and then you try to push that one onto me. You can I can't even agree on the very meaning of term "pagan". So that's a moot point there. You try to use the Christian meaning of the term, and I try to use the pagan meaning of the term.  Those are just a few from the last week or so, if you want proof, look for it yourself because "everyone knows this for a fact, there's no need for me to prove it..." http://mingle2.com/forum/show_posts_by_user/130401 I've justified all my views. You have nothing Peter. Nothing but personal disagreement is all. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Spider wrote: Your posts speak for themselves. You lie about Christianity and Christians in almost every post you make. You have frequently lied about your experience with Christianity, claiming to have "studied it for nearly 50 years" and finally admitted that by "study Christianity" you meant "study pop-spirituality and modern mysticism without ever cracking open a Bible except to look up a scripture to take out of context in an attempt to discredit Christianity." I think it's both sad and cruel of you to lie for years to people about your experiences and education in Christianity and you did it solely to appear to have authority in your silly theories and ridiculous belief, but it undoubtedly led people astray who might have been interested in becoming a Christian. I'm sorry sir, but your accusations aren't true. First off, I have never claimed to have "Officially Studied Christianity" via any formal system of education. I have never made any such claim. All I've ever said is that I have personally studied the religion myself for over 50 years. And that my friend is the TRUTH. And I'm totally open about the fact that it is indeed SELF STUDY. And the more I study it the more flaws I see in it. I'm still discovering flaws in it to this very day. So don't be accusing me of lying. That itself is a lie. I have never told anyone that I'm an "Authority" on Christianity, nor have I ever made any such claim. In fact, I have always offered that everything I state is nothing more than my own personal views. That's as HONEST as it gets Spider.  Your attempt to try to call me a liar is simply wrong. I've never claimed to have any "Official Education" on Christianity. My studies of the Bible have been SELF-STUDIES. Absolutely! I have never claimed otherwise. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You're wrong on every count Peter: 1. You claim God hates heathens. No I don't. The biblical scriptures make that claim about God. And I've given you verbatim verses from the book of John that shows this clearly. You refuse to acknowledge them. John.3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Hey, if the Bible is supposed to be the word of God, then here you have God saying that to non-believers are condemned already. The only way to squiggle out of it is to refute the Gospel of John as not being the "Word of God". There are other places in the Bible where non-believers are condemned as well, but I've shown one here, and one example is all I need. So clearly the Bible does indeed have God condemning 'heathens' and, as far as I'm concerned to condemn someone is to hate them. 2. You claim God with punish "unbelievers" for eternity. No I don't. The biblical scriptures make that claim about God (or at least many Christian clergy have taken that stance) In fact, Bishop Carlton Pearson was rejected by the Christian clergy who ordained him for suggesting that God came to him in a vision and told him that there is no such thing as eternal hell. So to disagree with this concept get's you booted out of the Christian camp. I can show you verses in the Bible that suggest the possibility of eternal hell. However, I will be the first to agree that they are ambiguous as is everything in the Bible, just the same, it's clearly that many Christian clergy stand behind the concept of an eternal hell. Some people claim that hell was not meant for humans, but the Gospels have Jesus himself implying that humans are in dander of being sent to hell. Matt.18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. So in order to call me a liar, you'd have to also call Jesus a liar, or at least call Matthew a liar. Matt.23 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Threading people with the damnation of hell? Jesus also supposedly said: Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. You can't very well be dead if you're wailing. There are also places where it says that you will suffer fires of hell that can never be quenched. Well, some people take that to mean that you won't be able to cease to exist in hell. I think it also suggests that hell is eternal in Revelations. But I'm certainly not the one who came up with these ideas. I think everyone is fully aware of the idea of being send to Hell. This most certainly isn't a new concept. 3. You claim all Christians hate homosexuals. No, I have never said any such thing. The biblical scriptures make the claim the God hates homosexuality. I shouldn't even need to hunt that verse down. Anyone who wants to claim otherwise would basically be saying that God is cool with homosexuality. 4. You claim God is appeased by blood sacrifices. No I don't. The biblical scriptures make that claim about God. They simply refer to is as "atonement" for sin. Appeasement, atonement? We could argue the semantics on that till the cows come home. 5. You call pagan rituals and beliefs "Christian" No I don't. You're the one who does that and then you try to push that one onto me. You can I can't even agree on the very meaning of term "pagan". So that's a moot point there. You try to use the Christian meaning of the term, and I try to use the pagan meaning of the term. Those are just a few from the last week or so, if you want proof, look for it yourself because "everyone knows this for a fact, there's no need for me to prove it..." http://mingle2.com/forum/show_posts_by_user/130401 I've justified all my views. You have nothing Peter. Nothing but personal disagreement is all. Stating I'm wrong doesn't make it true. Just like denying your words doesn't change the facts. I don't have to call John or any other author a liar, but I will call interpreters and King James liars. Hell is NOT scriptural, and besides that, that verse you quoted, if I'm correct, is not even about "hell". I don't expect you to understand spiritual things, but if anyone uses a concordance, they will see the truth about the lies and hate spread by others. You say you've studied for 50 years? Why not try another 50 hours with a concordance? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Studying the Bible with a concordance is very interesting. I may do it again at some point. But, it does kind of matter which concordance you use. I used a Catholic one and a Catholic Bible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Stating I'm wrong doesn't make it true. Just like denying your words doesn't change the facts. I don't have to call John or any other author a liar, but I will call interpreters and King James liars. Hell is NOT scriptural, and besides that, that verse you quoted, if I'm correct, is not even about "hell". I don't expect you to understand spiritual things, but if anyone uses a concordance, they will see the truth about the lies and hate spread by others. You say you've studied for 50 years? Why not try another 50 hours with a concordance? What makes you think that I haven't already considered concordances? I absolutely agree with you Peter, different people can interpret things differently. But that's no reason to call various interpretations "lies". They are simply different interpretations. In fact, this is why these biblical-based religions have so many diverging sects. No one can agree on the details. ~~~~ However, Peter. No concordance can erase the bulk of what's in the Bible. It can't erase the fact that the Old Testament has God instructing people to make blood sacrifices of animals to atone their sins. I personally have a major problem with that concept alone an no concordance can make that go away. I simply don't believe that an all-wise creator of this universe would request that anyone atone their sins via a sacrificial lamb. I personally see no wisdom in that whatsoever, and no one is ever going to convince me otherwise. Yet, the New Testament is based squarely on this very idea that sins must be 'paid' for via a blood sacrifice of a perfect lamb. And Jesus is being held up as that perfect sacrificial lamb. The whole religion is squared founded on the very concept that I find totally unreasonable. No concordance is going to change the fundamental theme of the Biblical religion. For me personally, the concept of an eternal hell itself is least of my objections. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Stating I'm wrong doesn't make it true. Just like denying your words doesn't change the facts. I don't have to call John or any other author a liar, but I will call interpreters and King James liars. Hell is NOT scriptural, and besides that, that verse you quoted, if I'm correct, is not even about "hell". I don't expect you to understand spiritual things, but if anyone uses a concordance, they will see the truth about the lies and hate spread by others. You say you've studied for 50 years? Why not try another 50 hours with a concordance? What makes you think that I haven't already considered concordances? I absolutely agree with you Peter, different people can interpret things differently. But that's no reason to call various interpretations "lies". They are simply different interpretations. In fact, this is why these biblical-based religions have so many diverging sects. No one can agree on the details. ~~~~ However, Peter. No concordance can erase the bulk of what's in the Bible. It can't erase the fact that the Old Testament has God instructing people to make blood sacrifices of animals to atone their sins. I personally have a major problem with that concept alone an no concordance can make that go away. I simply don't believe that an all-wise creator of this universe would request that anyone atone their sins via a sacrificial lamb. I personally see no wisdom in that whatsoever, and no one is ever going to convince me otherwise. Yet, the New Testament is based squarely on this very idea that sins must be 'paid' for via a blood sacrifice of a perfect lamb. And Jesus is being held up as that perfect sacrificial lamb. The whole religion is squared founded on the very concept that I find totally unreasonable. That's to say nothing of the fact that......if not for this blood sacrifice, we would be punished as a whole for sins that we never really committed, but that others before us had. No way you can tell me that is fair. A truly loving parent would NEVER do that to their kids, so there's no chance that God would. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kleisto wrote: That's to say nothing of the fact that......if not for this blood sacrifice, we would be punished as a whole for sins that we never really committed, but that others before us had. No way you can tell me that is fair. A truly loving parent would NEVER do that to their kids, so there's no chance that God would. Well, not only that, but you can't even compare God and human parents. That sort of an analogy must always fail. Human parent do "create" their children. They simply "procreate" them. Supposedly God creates each and ever one of us. So what the Hebrew fables are telling us is that our creator cannot create anything but sinners. Because the Bible says that all men are sinners. Moreover this God was supposed to have created us in HIS IMAGE. What then does that say about God? God must be a sinner too then. It's a train-wreck of a fable. It can't be made to work verbatim. That's truly all there is to it. At best, there may be some spiritual insight among the babble. And that's probably true of all religions. But it clearly cannot be the verbatim word of any single personified God because it's too full of self-contradictions. Take the good morals from it, and reject the absurdities. Then move on and do the same thing with all other religions. That's truly the only reasonable way to deal with it. To cling to it tenaciously and beat other people over the head with it insisting that they too must accept it verbatim just isn't reasonable, IMHO. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Studying the Bible with a concordance is very interesting. I may do it again at some point. But, it does kind of matter which concordance you use. I used a Catholic one and a Catholic Bible. I've never used a Catholic Bible, but I have used a Catholic concordance and dictionary online. Very rich and powerful, I learned a lot from it. Although I don't agree with all tenets of Catholicism, I don't question their love of God or depth of wisdom. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Ruth34611
on
Mon 12/27/10 05:22 PM
|
|
Studying the Bible with a concordance is very interesting. I may do it again at some point. But, it does kind of matter which concordance you use. I used a Catholic one and a Catholic Bible. I've never used a Catholic Bible, but I have used a Catholic concordance and dictionary online. Very rich and powerful, I learned a lot from it. Although I don't agree with all tenets of Catholicism, I don't question their love of God or depth of wisdom. It is very rich and powerful.  And, I very much agree with "Although I don't agree with all tenets of Catholicism, I don't question their love of God or depth of wisdom." |
|
|
|
|
