I'm not an atheist.

I have no hatred toward Christians in general. But I do feel deep animosity toward those who use Jesus as an excuse to support hatred of non-believers, and others.

All I ask from the Christians is to acknowledge that a non-belief in the bible is a reasonable and sane view for a person to hold.

That's all they need to do.

After all, ShiningArmour you say:

"I think if your going to belittle and hate on christians you should do it where it's accepted. Not here. Where it is not."

You talk about this form as if it is the Christian Forum, but it's not. It's the General Religion Forum. Therefore why should I be belittled for NOT believing in Christianity?

As soon as you show a little respect for my belief that the Bible is NOT the word of God, and that Jesus was NOT the sacrificial lamb of God, then we can move forward in peace.

Until then, you are refuse to respect me and my views, and you are belittling them.

So where do you get off expecting me to respect your views when you refuse to respect mine?

OK that's all good and fine.

I disagree with evolution!

At least the bible offers to better your life somehow. I offers guidance and wisdom. All the evolution mythology/fable does is offer up some nonsense about how rock soup was one day struck by lightning and came to life.

Then after some b-zillion years turned into people. Huh?

Evolution has several flaws in it.

Its supposedly based on science which is what you can see and observe to find fact and reasons for things that happen.
OK When is the last time you saw a star form? When is the last time you saw a dog give birth to a monkey?

Besides that how do you fill in missing links? Or the fact that water the essential substance needed for all life even got here? Science still can't explain that one.

I can say God made the earth and the universe. I can point to several proofs.

There is absolutley NO proof of the evolution mythology. It's nonsense and frankly the most stupid religion I have ever heard of. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does Christianity.

You can say that some mystic gurus from the deep east said some nonsense. And buddah is the end all and be all of everything but I don't have to believe it.

Instead of bashing God and stating all that's wrong with that I say we turn the tables and bash evolution for a bit. After all this is the general religion forum and evolution is a religion right? Even if it is a outdated moronic one.

I don't abra in fact I said in my last post that that's all good and fine! Believe whatever you want!

If you read my last post, I got off the christian wagon and thought I would talk on YOUR religion! After all why talk about something you disagree with right?

I'm not aware of anyone who views evolution as a religion. I most certainly don't. It's just a scientific observation of fact. It doesn't represent a religion anymore than gravity represents a religion.

So I have no clue where you are even coming from.

Even without any concept of evolution, it's crystal clear that mankind did not exist on this planet until after many lower lifeforms had already existed, and that death, disease, and all manner of what we think of as 'evil' had clearly existed.

So the only point was making with all of that is that the biblical premise that mankind's fall from grace from some God cannot be the cause of 'evil' coming into the world.

That's only one of the many observations of why I feel the biblical stories of a God cannot be true.

If you don't care to believe it, that's fine with me.

Again, you must realize that I'm not attempting to convince you of anything, or change YOUR religious beliefs in anyway.

All I'm doing is sharing my REASONS why I don't believe in the biblical God.

And all I expect from any Christian is to simply respect my views without accusing me of "rejecting God" or any of that nonsense.

REMEMBER this is the GENERAL RELIGOIN FORUM, not the CHRISTIAN FORUM.

I believe in an Eastern Mysticism picture of God. That RELIGION my friend.

I also believe that Wicca is a very respectable and beautiful way in which to worship our creator. Again that's considered to be RELIGION too.

Moreover, I respect Atheists in their choice to disbelieve in a God altogether if that's what they feel inside.

I also respect Christians belief in the Biblical picture of God, as long as they don't try to SHOVE that view DOWN MY THROAT with threats that I'm turning away from God if I reject it, blah, blah, blah.

If you want to believer in the biblical picture of God more power to you!

But if you try to SELL that picture to me, I WILL explain why I'm not buying. And then, almost without fail, that will cause you to accuse me of "bashing" your religion simply because I'm trying to explain to you why I'm not buying into it.

And that my friend, is that make Christians and Christianity so disgusting.

They try to sell their religion to others, and when the other people try to explain why they aren't buying, they are then accused of "bashing Christianity".

Quit trying to sell it so hard, and you won't have people explaining to you why they aren't buying it.

My religion? You were talking about evolution being a religion. That makes no sense to me.

My religion is extremely deep and quite abstract. I would be more than happy to try share it with you if you the best I can if are truly interested, but if your intention is to just argue against it then I really see no point in wasting time telling you about it.

It's not my intention to sell any particular religion to anyone.

OK Now we are getting someplace!

Let it be known to prevent futher confusion as far as I am concerned the religion of GOD debate is over.

Now Abra here says that evolution is based of scientific FACT.

It's not abra sorry to say. Nobody has ever proven the mythology/fable of evolution. In fact a great man named "Kent Honvid" Offers large sums of money to anyone who can prove it without a reasonable doubt. Nobody ever has.

Evolution starts off with the big bang. What exploded? Nothing did! It just...Did.

This created planets and stars and all sorts of stuff! From nothing.

Then after the earth formed all sorts of chemicals evolved and came to be...even though there was only two we now have an entire table of elements. That again came from....(Drumroll) nothing.

That brings out a chicken and egg problem which came first? The chemicals to ignite and create stars? Or the stars to create the chemicals? Furthermore Where did the life for the bactieria come from?

OK so it starts raining on the earth. It makes some soup lightning strikes the soup and the soup comes alive making bacteria.

Now theres enough info in a single cell to fill 1000 encyclopedias. So complex one cell organisms come forth from...mistake? I find that hard to believe. I mean it takes less faith to think that God did it but again the choice for belief is all up to you. Just don't insult my intelligence by calling it science.

Religion is a collection of beliefs which provide explanation for things that have and do happen. Beliefs! No proof needed. Evolution has NO proof. That's where it becomes a religion.

Now on to wicca! I would make fun of this (I even have my own parody religion for wicca) But I don't want any curses put on me. (No offense)

And that's fine

I see that you've edited out your extremely derogatory and disrespectful remarks. I think that was very wise of you.

I respect you for removing them.

You said in your other post:

"Now on to wicca! If you believe in evolution as Fact then you can't believe in wicca UNless you think that the god and goddess are phycological archtypes of the human mind. Which I think is a bit more believable."

I absolutely do view the God and Goddess as psychological archetypes of the human mind. Absolutely. In fact, IMHO, that's the proper way to view Wicca. However, I will be the first to confess that not all Wiccans will agree with that view.

For this very reason I do not even claim to be a Wiccan. Just the same I believe that Wicca can be a very beautiful way to commune with, and worship our divine creator.

As I've stated before, my spiritual views are quite deep and quite abstract. I believe that, if there is a creator of this universe, that creator is also quite deep and quite intangible to our way of thinking.

When it comes to belief in a God, there is one thing I place above all other things, and that's honesty. If the God itself cannot be thought of as being both, an honest entity, and an entity that appreciates honesty, then why even bother calling it a God?

So to begin any spiritual philosophy of a "God" that is not demonic, we must start with honesty.

The next, thing on the path to spirituality is to recognize honestly, that I do not have absolute knowledge that any "God" actually exists. And therefore to be honest with myself, and with any God, I must confess that I am ultimately agnostic with respect to God, (i.e. without absolute knowledge of God)

I work forward from there, imagining two things to be true:

1. God truly is infinite in power and wisdom.
2. God truly does represent righteousness and all that is good.

Based on these two premises, I can only conclude that no matter how great and perfect I can imagine God to be, God must necessarily be even greater and more perfect that what I imagine God to be.

Therefore, I must choose the wisest and most righteous picture of God I can imagine. And if I can come up with an even wiser and more righteous picture of God, then I must accept that that picture of God must be even closer to what God is truly like.

So my vision of God is constantly evolving. I accept that God is a mystery, and that I can never know God completely. Therefore no matter how great I imagine God to be, I must always be failing to grasp the entire picture.

~~~~

Based on these simple principle, I have long since rejected the biblical picture of God, because it neither represents the wisest, nor the most righteous, nor the most powerful or unlimited God I can imagine, and therefore it must necessarily be false, because it falls far short of describing an infinitely wise and powerful God.

~~~~

I refer to Eastern Mysticism as a spiritual philosophy that I feel most closely allows God to be infinitely wise and perfect. But one thing you need to understand about Eastern Mysticism is that this philosophy does not claim to describe what God is like. On the contrary, it actually holds that God is ultimately unknowable, and a mystery. In fact this is precisely why it's called Mysticism[/I}. God is an unknowable mystery.

Eastern Mysticism acknowledges this.

So for all intents and purposes, that's a bird's-eye view of my spiritual beliefs.

There are many other concepts associate with them too of course. For example, I believe that since God created this universe, then however the universe was created is a reflection of God's work. In other words, if the universe reveals to us that we got here through a process of evolution, then clearly that's how God created us. Why argue with God's work? It is what it is.

there is much that could be seen that would indicate all things are indeed a religion, or the same principle therein, or using a "belief" to decide what oneself values, and bases all things "against", as the self measure of good, of real, of even reality, that automatically demands such faithful following of a person as for this to be it's ULTIMATE MOST DECIDER.

it seems for there to be no "belief", religion, science, academmia, service, as a "religion" to oneself, or having THE SAME EFFECT, of closing the mind to ANYTHING ESLE EXCEPT IT'S OWN ULTIMATE, than there is only one way...

ALL THINGS WOULD HAVE TO BE BUT CONSIDERED INFORMATION...

data...

and not just data...

but all relevant data, or EQUALLY VALUED DATA...

but then humans are naturally enamored with proving their own belief as special, as rare, as unqiue, as the only truth, as the better, and since there MUST EXIST A "BETTER", or there is no point to human increase of KNOWING, thanit rather becomes but a matter of WHY one wants to prove it's own belief as better, whether it be a belief in science, or religion, or any such things...

in essence, humans are wallking encyclopedia's, but not in a bad way, unless others do not wish to think any other encyclopedia has any merit.

can it be missed that all data had, or known to humans came from people, so wallking eyes and ears, and all have some good reason to write what they write...

to publish what they publish.

to print what they print.

so it seems a matter of assimilating as much data as possible, to know or see or understand the most possible.

if life is still about understanding.

comprehending.

nah...

life on the grand scale has never been about understanding data as the goal, rather most naturally about self happiness as the goal, so all data written is going to be tainted with some "bias" induced from the writer who was seeing things it looked at thru "self happiness", and certainlny automatically "self preservation"...

so, this leaves out from the mind MUCH OTHER DATA, or ALL THE DATA, THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SELF PRESERVATION, THE SELF HAPPINESS, THE SELF ATTAINMENT, THE SELF GOALS FOR ITSELF...

so it seems that to finsih the course of human existence, it would only be logical one would need to go back and pick up all that other "data" that itself left out due to "self" agenda....

of course, this could not be done if the existing boxes of categories of "data" were still in tact within the human mind.

so it seems to dump these, would be the beginnings of the elimination of things 'THOUGHT OF', as religions, as science, as smarter, as more noble, as more moral, and all these other "mortal perceptions"...

it can not be missed, that such would be the only true elimination fo bias in the brain itself, which is but "words" humans made up, that trigger a signal in the brain, DIFFERENT TYPE DATA.

and it would seem, that entering all data into the mind as EQUAL, or without category, or label, would be the only "unconditional" data intake, so the most matching any notions of "god" as having unconditional qualities, or qualities without ending and beginning...

why of course, as the brain filters information, there is a stopping point or NEW BEGINNING, if one believes itself to be reading religious material, rather than scientific material...

the emotions are then triggered to FEEL different about these two different CATEGORIES OF WORDS.

so therefore, DIFFERENT FEELINGS ARE CREATED IN THE SELF.

so, what created the "different" feelings?

the words humans themself made up, to label their findings, no different than a file cabinet as the brain is labeled...

but this in no way needs to be the case.

this first made the brain create a human emotion trigger, as a crossing gaurd for a school crossing, at any data without categories itself has been taught are of LESS TRUTH...

which then enter this supposed thing called "truth" or not truth...

truth of GOD, or not truth of GOD...

it seems the only things not of god, would be what is not true?

and what is NOT TRUE?

didn't happen?

not real?

not moral?

not good?

what is damnation to hell?

what is lifted to heaven?

what is praising god?

what is blasphemy?

so, it seems that since humans are enamored with "their truth", as the best, the most good, the most productive, the most intelligent, the most of god, there would have to come to be a defining first not of truth, or any of these things, but most what is the most valuable to HUMANS collectively...

if we say all science is idiocy, than we say there is no truth.

if we say all religion is idiocy, then we say there is no truth.

if we say all acedemia has no idiocy, then we say the impossible.

for there is stupidity, or simply unknows that exist to that person.

which brings to the essence of the value.

the most value.

humanness is most about finding UNKNOWNS.

discovery of unknowns, and solving them, or understanding them, so they are no longer an unknown.

the very basis of creating intelligence.

to do this to the grandest most possible degree, would be to peer pasy the label's that humans made up for "words"...

knowing certainnly that is was but a person as self that wrote all other data.

this in itself would free the intellect to naturally ASSIMILATE ALL DATA, WITHOUT EXCLUSION, WHICH WOULD BE THE ONLY TRUE "NONE BIAS", OR BASING TRUTH UPON "SELF", but rather upon ALL WORDS SPOKEN AS EQUAL...

which would seem to fit the notions handed down of humans at sometime in existence coming to some sort of "enlightenment"...

of course, it cannot be missed, that if one eliminates the "biased" labels over DATA, that it naturally will shed it's bias toward people, since people wrote all data.

anyhow...

just thoughts...

just ignorant rambings from one idiot...

ditto's

That's fine if you reject it abra but I think what pisses everyone off is that you repeatedly rant about your viewpoint no matter what the topic of the thread is.

If you continue the responses you get will only get worse.

I've always rejected wicca because I view the supposed "gods" to be nothing more than demonic entities who's ultimate goal is to mislead and lie to the supposed "Follower"

If I want to talk to a horned animal I will go to the zoo or perhaps start a goat farm. No need to pray to a fake one.

Also Evolution does not begin to include God. Evolution is man's attempt to remove God or god's from the picture entirely. That's the whole point.

The reason for evolution was that people wanted a scientific explanation for their origin. To say that God is responsible for all of this that we see is nonsense

Well, isn't that precisely what the Christians do to everyone else all the time continually and relentlessly never letting up.

They repeatedly rant about their viewpoint that the Bible is the word of God and that Jesus is the only salvation and way to God, and all other religions are false, no matter what the topic of the thread might be?

All I'm doing is offering the opposite vantage point.

I'm simply suggesting that maybe the Bible is what's false and some of these other spiritual philosophies might actually be closer to the truth.

The only reason this upsets you is because it's in your way of proselyting your religion as the "only way".

I make very good points of why the Biblical story isn't all that great and how it could easily be totally false.

In fact, I wouldn't even need to take that approach if the Christians were already STOMPING all over my views of far more positive spirituality.

All I need to do is mention something like reincarnation and the Christians jump all over it and start proselyting that the Bible is the only true word of God and that Jesus is the only way to get to God, blah, blah, blah.

So it's virtually impossible to have a conversation about GENERAL RELIGION or GENERAL SPIRITUALITY without the Christians doing precisely what you accuse me of doing:

"repeatedly rant about your viewpoint no matter what the topic of the thread is."

That's all the Christians ever do. They repeatedly rant about their viewpoint no matter what the topic of the thread might be.

They do precisely what you are accusing me of doing.

So instead of bashing why not post your own views? Why say what we say is wrong?

That's the whole reason why Ive changed this thread to discuss what YOU believe! Not us.

Let me say that I believe that I am right. And you believe that you are right. There is no point in arguing because we will only reinforce in our own minds that we are right and the other is wrong.

All I'm saying is leave christianity alone and stop bashing on it.

I've done some research on wicca and notice that they support reincarnation as their view of the afterlife.

This can't possibly be true and is nothing more than folklore.

Wicca is a highly abstract religion. It basically becomes what you make it. It's not like Christianity at all. It's purpose is not to "save" anyone. It's merely a means of worshiping God.

If you choose to see it as a means of worshiping demons, then that's your choice, and it's what you have made Wicca become for YOU.

I personally don't even view Wicca as a "religion". From my point of view, a person already needs to have a concept of spirituality before Wicca even calls to them.

By the way, I don't think you'll find many people 'proselytizing' Wicca. I'm sure you'll find educators who are willing to TEACH the basic concepts, but that's not proselyting it.

I also tell people that I think it's a beautiful means of worshiping and communicating with God. But that's just my view, I'm not suggesting that they become a Wiccan. I'm just sharing my experience and view of it.

By the way, you don't FOLLOW Wicca. It's not that kind of a "religion", if you want to call it a religion. It's a means of spiritual communique that helps you to find your own path to God. You create the path, Wicca merely provides the means.




Wicca isn't for everyone. It requires a high level of spiritual understanding and abstract thought. It requires an understanding (even if only an intuitive understanding) of the power and value of psychological archetypes. As I say, you don't need to understand this technically, it can be an entirely intuitive understanding (in fact that's even better actually), but clearly from your statement here you aren't even in a position to understand Wicca.




If evolution is how the universe works, and there exists a God, then clearly evolution necessarily includes God.

And no, evolution is not mankind's attempt to remove God from anything. That's totally false. Scientists aren't even thinking about religion when they seek truth. They just seek truth and accept what they find.

To believe that all scientists throughout the world are all in some conspiracy to do away with religion and God is untenable, IMHO.



No. The reason we discovered evolution is because we seek truth and that just happens to be the truth of the universe we live it.

Therefore if there is a God associated with this universe, then evolution is also God's truth.

Think about it for a moment:

What do you have here?

The universe itself is telling us that evolution is true. God wrote the universe (surely you agree with that) Therefore the universe must ultimately be "God's Word".

The only thing you have that conflicts with "God's Word" are some ancient superstitions written by a hand full of people from a very crude and rude society thousands of years. Stories that are not only impossible to verify, but are also extremely outrageous in thei claims. Stories than weren't even accepted by everyone at the time they were written (i.e. even the Jews dismiss the idea that Jesus was "The Christ").

So you want to TRUMP "God's true word - The Universe and Reality", with some ancient Zeus-like fable of a God who is appeased by blood sacrifices?

Hey, if that what you choose to believe, more power to you!

But I certainly hope you don't expect me to think that way.

Your attempting to mix evolution with God.

The bible says God formed and made the earth and all of its inhabitants as we see them today.

Evolution says evreything evolved from lesser forms and happened by sheer chance.

They can't both be right! You can't mix the two together and get some new religion!

That's why evolution is a religion is a belief. Nobody has to prove it because they believe it. Nobody has ever "Found" Evolution. Because like God it's not a proven fact.

There's evidence of a world wide flood. There's evidence of noahs arc. There's evidence of jesus. These are facts. There is no evidence of all things happening by accident.

It's a religion. That's all. The sooner you accept this the sooner we can move on

I do not 'bash' on Christianity. At least not on purpose. It just appears that way to you because so many people are trying to sell it too me and I'm always giving them my reasons for not buying it.

I am very sincere when I offer my views:

1. The Old Testament is most likely nothing more than a Zeus-like Fable. It even contains the same concepts of a God being appeased by blood-sacrifice to atone sins, which I personally find to be quite negative and disturbing.

That's not "bashing", it's just a sincere opinion.

2. I believe that Jesus was most likely a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist who was misunderstood and sadly crucified for his views.

Again, that's not "bashing", it's just a sincere view.

As a human being I have a right to offer my views on these ancient texts.

3. In light of my above two observations, I came to the realization that the New Testament must necessarily be nothing more than distorted rumors, whether distorted via pure misunderstanding, or outright fraud.

Again, that's my view on these ancient stories.



Your views on Wicca do not concern me. If you believe that it's nothing more than folklore that's fine with me.

I don't even necessarily agree with the views of everyone who claims to be "Wiccan", or claims what Wicca stands for either.

So there's no news there for me.

I'm not trying to proselytize Wicca, and therefore I truly don't care what you might think of it.

I personally don't need your approval to appreciate what Wicca has to offer me. For me, it's a very beautiful means of communicating and worshiping the divine creator of all that exists.

Wicca is neither "true" nor "false" since it's not a dogma. It doesn't make specific claims about things as you seem to think. Although certain people who call themselves "Wiccan" may take that stance.

But again, I'm not trying to sell Wicca to you, so I really don't care what you think of it.

So if you think it's utterly stupid, that's fine with me.

I'm not attempting to do anything. If God created this universe using evolution than that's the way things are.



Well, if it actually states that then we know it's false.



Well, to say that it happened by 'sheer chance', is wrong. Even the theory of evolution doesn't say that. So that can only be your own assumption, or misunderstanding of scientific knowledge.



Well, just drop the Bible then and you won't need to worry about trying to mix incompatible things together.

My spiritual beliefs are not in conflict with nature, so it's not a problem for me. Evolution fits in just fine with my view of God.



Well, like you say, the biblical God is not a proven fact either. So you've got two things here.

Evolution, which we have overwhelming evidence for.

And an ancient fable of a Zeus-like male god who is appeased by blood sacrifices.

Take your choice.

I choose to accept evolution rather than a story of a Zeus-like god who is appeased by blood sacrifices.

I personally have no problem with evolution. It's just not a problem and it doesn't conflict with my views of God. After all isn't God supposed to be able to anything? Well, if so, then God could design a universe that's capable of evolving. So where is there a problem between evolution and God?

There is not problem that I can see.



That's not what I have learned. From what I've learned from geneticists and the human genome project no such catastrophic flood could have possible occurred whilst humans have been on the planet because any such flood would have disrupted the genetic records in the fossils of ancient humans, and that record is in tact.

So no such flood could have possibly occurred on planet Earth during the span of human evolution.

I personally don't believe that anyone ever found any evidence of Noah's Ark.

Evidence of Jesus is not evidence of his divinity. You seem to forget that I acknowledge that a man named Jesus lived, taught and was indeed crucified for his views. I simply hold that he was a mortal man. So even if you had a complete historical account that Jesus existed and was crucified I wouldn't be impressed by any of that. I expect that was indeed a real event.



Evolution has nothing to do with religion. Religious fanatics have a problem with evolution.

That's all.

I accept evolution as a fact. I have no problem with and it has absolutely nothing to do with religion for me. It doesn't conflict with my spiritual views at all.

It's just not a problem for me in any way.

It's only a problem for you because it doesn't support your religion.

We're not trying to sell Christianity either. We're doing just as you, stating our views and beliefs on certain things. Weather you wish to give that merit or not is all up to you. We're just here to discuss, not convert or anything of such. That's what I don't get. You freak out when a Christian tells his/her belief bashing it stating it's just fokelore, it's hearsay rumours, it's a biased religion, ect. But all we're doing is discussing our beliefs just as you are.

Say what you wish Abra, the proof is in the pudding as the saying goes.

While routinely examining aerial photos of his country, a Turkish army captain suddenly gaped at a picture... There, on a mountain 20 miles south of Mt. Ararat, the biblical landfall of Noah's Ark, was a boat-shaped form about 500-515 feet long. The captain passed on the word. Soon an expedition including American scientists set out for the site.

At 7,000 feet, in the midst of crevasses and landslide debris, the explorers found a clear, grassy area shaped like a ship and rimmed with steep, packed-earth sides. Its dimensions are close to those given in Genesis: 'The length of the ark shall be 300 cubits, the breadth of it 50 cubits, and the height of it 30 cubits,' that is, 450x75x45 feet. A quick two-day survey was made. A scientist in the group says

February 1987 - Ron meets with the Governor of the Agri District, Mr. Sevket Ekinci. The December 1986 decision was positive - it was the official decision of members of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, of Internal Affairs, and researchers from Ataturk University, among others, that the "boat-shaped formation" did indeed contain the remains of Noah's Ark!

Plans were made for the official dedication of the site, which would include Ron as guest of honor as the "discoverer" of the fact that it was truly the remains of Noah's Ark.

June 20, 1987 - Ron participates in the Dedication of "Noah's Ark."

On the mountainside overlooking the former "boat shaped object", which had now been proclaimed by the Turkish Government to be "Noah's Ark", were gathered a large number of dignitaries, from the local level to the national level, as well as high ranking military. Journalists were also present.

The plans were made public for a visitors' center to be erected on the spot. The governor spoke the dedication in Turkish and then he lifted the first shovel full of dirt - the groundbreaking of the new visitors' center. Ron, as guest of honor, lifted the second shovel full of dirt and then other dignitaries participated in the ceremony.