Here's something to think about.



It occurred to me today that there cannot be a place such as Hell, because there would be no one and nothing there, no fallen angels or people in it...for the simple reason that every angel and human being once knew love. It seems only logical to me that love, which is inspired of and by GOD, would have no abiding place in Hell. I'm also convinced that love leaves an ineradicable mark on the individual. No person is so filled with hate that he has never known or expressed love. Even Lucifer loved God too much. Hell, by definition, has to be a place without love. Hence, there is no Hell.



Fallacious logic? Maybe. Without resorting to the "authority" of the Bible, explain to me why there is a Hell or could be a Hell

Heaven and hell are states of consciousness....we create our hell or our heaven right here, right now. Before physical life and after physical life...love is all there is. Not flames, burning and eternal torture. It's a completely asinine concept. We make our lives heaven or hell by our choices and the way we deal with what life throws at us. I choose heaven...

There could be a hell because people can love and still commit atrocities for which they are held accountable through natural consequence or enforcement of punishments and laws. Those who know and love and seek a God, would be more likely to find him than those who reject or deny. Mankind has the capacity to create WMDs,,certainly a God would have the capacity to create a hell,, and ironically they could be one in the same if man decides to blow themself up with only those who called upon, found and were brought home to God being spared the natural consequences.

i was thinking the same, it such a good way of thinking ladylid :)

msharmony..I know we don't agree on this particular subject (many others we do) and never will.

Growing up Christian, I was taught that God loved me as a child, as a parent loves a child. Though I am not a Christian now, I have been a mother for 26 years. When my sons made mistakes there were, and still are natural consequences or a punishment I would administer...either way, it is a result of their choice.

I don't punish them over and over...sometimes the natural consequence is much harsher. Only a jerk would continually punish one for a mistake, bad choice or even a crime, let alone eternal torture.... When I think of God, All That Is, The Creator, I Am...I think of love, not 'jerk'.

I agree with Ladylid and Jesus, "Heaven is at hand", and therefore, so is "hell". It's all in what you make it.

The whole eternal punishment thing is nothing more than religious rhetoric designed to strike fear into the minds of anyone who might even dare to think about disagreeing with the CHURCH!

It's clearly an ungodly tactic that that doesn't even fit in with the ideal of a supposedly benevolent or all-wise supreme being. It's obviously nothing more than an example of a mythology that became a train wreck of bad ideas.

Well definately The Idea of Hell is a Reality its not a Trick to Scare People. Hell is Dimension or Realm created with a Purpose yet it is outside time itself its called enternity seperation from God himself either Heaven or Hell.Matthew 16 Jesus came with a Sword to seperate the sheeps from the Goats.Who will you Follow? With Jesus or your Own ideology concept? I Choose Jesus Cristo the Crist the Anointed One the Salvior of Humanity we can not save our self so Jesus Took it upon himself the open a solution now you come by faith to the one that paid the price for you or just leave it alone.The Law was Broken and we had to pay but God took it upon himself and open the door for Spiritual reconsilation (Prayer).There is good news!! A Savior was Born John 1.1 he came down as a Man for the salvation for man now you choose Jesus or not that up to you I hope u do!!!

My own ideological concept. Without a doubt.

Besides, it would be impossible for me to "follow" Jesus since, from what I've read, he had pretty much the same views as me. It's pretty hard to "follow" someone who holds the same values I do. The best I could possibly do is walk with him side-by-side as brothers and I feel confident that he would be more than pleased with this.

Unlike you, I would not condone having him nailed to a pole to pay for my sins. I flatly reject that notion. I would gladly walk into hell under my own free will before I would condone such a horrid act. So even if it came down to such an offer I would necessarily need to reject it as a matter of principle.

I couldn't go to any heaven after having condoned having Jesus nailed to a pole for my sake. I wouldn't want to live with myself after that. I'd rather die. I'd choose death before I would condone having Jesus nailed to a pole for my sake.

I can't imagine how you can be comfortable with such a thing. The very idea just makes me want to puke. Besides, if the only people who are in heaven are people who are willing to have Jesus nailed to a pole to pay for their sins, then I can assure you that I have absolutely no desire to go there and be with those people. That would just make my skin craw to be around such people. How disgusting.

So, if there's no Hell to scare people into doing the right thing, what is the dynamic that keeps this system functioning. I believe it's karma, not only how it relates to life as we live it right now but as it relates to an afterlife, to karmic effects on a subsequent life. I don't believe in the heaven I learned in Sunday school, which is absolutely too simplistic to be anything but a fairy tale. I do believe that the you and me, that we are, will not dissipate into non-existence with our deaths. I believe the value of our lives follows us into the next phase, whether we're simply a flicker of light or other life form. If we were good, we are better prepared for the next life, if you can call it that, than if we were selfish or hated or hurt others. I believe the ultimate result of existence and repeated existence, not necessarily in three-dimensional space, is distillation of all negativity until we arrive at pure LOVE, which may very well be joining our essence with the Creator.

The concept of 'karma' has kept me in check much more effectively than the idea of 'going to hell' ever did. As a matter of fact, I had to completely dump the salvation theory to move into a more loving path of spirituality. I agree with you Wulf....our essence and the essence of the 'creator' are one in the same. It's when we get to that place that is the pure energy of love when we begin to understand the oneness concept, not just with creator....the oneness that is all of us.

Where in this world does the bad and evil people get the same rewards and benefits as the good people?It doesn't exist.This whole concept that everyone is basically good because they have loved before is total nonsense.There has been lots of people that were born bad,lived bad,and will die bad.There is millions of people that have never experienced love.I doubt if those girls living in Afghanistan and Pakistan wearing burkas have ever experienced love.Charlie manson has been in jail since he was a young boy and nearly his entire life.He probably has never felt true love.

Love may be a great thing but hate is just as powerful.Your living in fairyland if you think that some people can not be totally consumed with hate.It doesn't matter if they have ever loved because what does a few months or few years of love have to do with a life time of hate and murder?Are we supposed to give Hitler a free pass because he loved someone at some point in his life?I think we see from reading the newspaper that it is easy to hate and hard to love.Everyone in this life has choices.Those choices comes with rewards and punishments.Some people spend the majority of their life hating everyone and everything and others love regardless of what is happening.If you believe in heaven and hell than you realize you will be judged by those actions.


Your logic has flaws concerning all religions.Because none of them believe that love alone gives you heaven and eternal life.I am a Christian and I know that works alone including love do not get you out of Hell.I believe it is very real and I believe there is millions of people in it.There is no love in Hell just those who have chosen that destiny out of pride,ignorance,or something else.There would be no point in having good and evil or free will if everyone went to the same place and was rewarded the same.Lucifer did not love God too much.If he did he would have not tried to take his place and overthrow him.

One of us is right.I would hate to be the wrong one.

Hell is simply being seperated from God. If you do not believe in God, then you are in hell.

Think of a lamp, which lights up a dark room. The light bulb, the center/source of the light would be heaven/GOD. The dark area where the light doesn't reach would be hell, the dark the area, further away from the light, the deeper into hell you are. The closer you are to the light, the brighter it is, the deeper you are in heaven.

That's kinda how I think of it.

Wulf, Abra & Lady: Just because you don't believe it doesn't exist doesn't make it any less real. Outside of talking about money & how are to treat each other, Jesus spoke more about the reality of hell than other subject. He did so because He knows it's real, because He created it. As all things were created thru Him before He became incarnate. It was created for Satan & His fallen minions for eternal punishment. Not because Lucifer loved God too much, because he loved himself too much, thinking he was God's equal. Pride and arrogance caused his fall & unfortunately many humans as well. It's that kind of pride and arrogance I see in your postings about how you don't accept this or that or how things should be, not how it's portrayed in scripture, regardless of what ANY church may say.

God will not be sending people to hell, people will condemn themselves, merely by rejecting His only begotten Son. That is the grievance of the Holy Spirit sin that is spoken about that is unforgivable. Jesus himself said, "I am the way the truth and the light. No one comes to the father, except thru me." And that's not arrogance, that's truth.

Lucifer is a condemned being & he knows it. Why do you think he works so hard to ruin people's lives, blind them to the truth, bust up churches, etc? Because misery loves company & he wants to take as many souls with him as he can. I can see his handiwork of blindness in the postings here.

When folks use nebulous terms like "essence" just what do they mean? Are we an aroma that gets absorbed into the great creator sponge? If we become one with this god than what happens to our individuality? We no longer have an "essence". When we see the magnificence of the creation around us, how can we have the temerity to say that we are equal to this incredible power? And the "essence" & "oneness" concepts seem to neglect the fact that, here is this physical world, we have hierarchies to determine who's in charge. We need this for obvious reasons. Why would the afterlife be any different? We will never be equal to God. To think that is to put yourself in the same league as Lucifer & he loves it when he can convince humans that you can be God's equal. You see, we're a knockoff of the original.

When we use the relative term "good" what do we really mean? In a fallen world such as ours how do we determine what good is? We can't look to ourselves as the standard for good is, because that's like looking for a perfect reflection in a broken mirror. We need a standard that is outside of us, the perfect good; God, Jesus & the Spirit. The problem with most folks is their unwillingness to accept that we humans as a whole are evil at our core. How do we account for the evil & misery visited upon the human race at the hands of our fellow humans? And it can't all be attributed to mental illness or demon possession. We humans can cause plenty of harm without any outside influences. Think of the things you've done to others. I am shamed at the thoughts of the things I've done.

And Abra, you've already made your decision about your eternal destination by rejecting His teachings. If you & He really had the same "views" you would be His follower. He would walk beside you as a brother if you really listened to His teachings. When you don't understand the significance of the sacrificial ceremony that the Jews practiced in the old covenant, then you will not understand the necessity of Jesus freely allowing Himself to become THE prefect sacrifice for mankind, for all sin, & for all time in the new covenant. No human was wanting Jesus to sacrifice Himself for them. It was God, His Son & the Holy Spirit who wanted it to be so, because of their great love they have for mankind. If you want to talk about love, that's where you need to start. Jesus said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." And that's exactly what He did.

tf73

I get that thinking...I feel like 'god' is going to be different things to different people. The 'light' has nothing to do with religion....it depends on the personal connection to spirit, the light, source. So do you think that one who says they are atheist are living in their own personal hell?

The light thing was kind of a crude example to try to get my main thought out.

I would think they are. From what I understand atheism to be. If you don't belive in God, you would be sperating yourself from Him.

FOR THE FLESH, WHEN A MAN DIES HE GOES TO HELL (GRAVE) AND IS ASLEEP. WITHOUT THE RESURRECTION THATS THE END! THE SPIRIT OF THE MAN NOT OF GOD WILL BE CAST INTO THE COMING LAKE OF FIRE (HELL) AND DIE. MAN IS NOT AN IMMORTAL SOUL OR SPIRIT. ONLY AFTER THE FREE GIFT OF GOD IS GIVEN WILL THOSE HIS BE GIVEN IMMORTALITY.

THERE IS ANOTHER USE OF THE WORD HELL. IT WAS A VISUAL EXAMPLE TO THOSE OF THE TIME, A SHADOW OF THAT TO COME. THE TRASH FIRE IN THE VALLEY OF HINNOM OUTSIDE OF THE WALLS OF JERUSALEM.

AND THE PIT/PRISON OF THE FALLEN ANGELS.

ALL FOUR WORDS WERE TRANSLATED INTO THE WORD HELL....BUT EACH HAS ITS OWN MEANING. USE YOUR STRONG'S AND READ THE BIBLE. ALL ELSE IS "WUT I BE THUNKIN IS THIS HERE!" TYPE OF NONSENSE!

I can appreciate your convictions of your belief system..and I'll say it back to you..just because you believe it to be true doesn't mean it is. We each get to choose for ourselves.
Pride and arrogance in my postings....a strong conviction in my way of living , which by the way is working for me pretty dang good, is not pride or arrogance.
Tribe, since you did specifically named me, you have just told me that Lucifer is taking me to hell, or at least attempting to do so.
Your not in a position to judge me or any one else in such a way, yet your calling me, us arrogant. It is YOUR truth, not mine. I will not tell you your going to hell or heaven because it's not my place to make such a judgment call on you, or anyone else..
Those of us who choose to believe in and live by the 'karma' concept just have a different perspective. We, or I'll say I, don't believe we ever started or will ever end. That our 'essence' is eternal..it is who we truly are and our physical bodies are just a that, a temporary physical body. We live by a different belief system...doesn't make either of us right or wrong.
If you would like to call yourself 'evil at the core'..by all means feel free. Follow the guilt and fear that many choose to keep them self in check. I grew up Christian and was told I was evil,
un-worthy, bad, possibly going to hell, that pain in childbirth was punishment for Eve's boo-boo in tempting the man, that we are all born from the original sin.....F U*k that! I'm not evil, child birth hurts because it's like pushing out a bowling ball! I am worthy, I am not bad. I am a divine 'piece' of god, we all are. I understand the oneness concept is difficult for many to grasp, I just don't understand why...if were all a 'knock off' then wouldn't we all have that spark of god, and if we do then we all share the spark, the god self.
I'm ashamed of things I've done..I do my best to learn from bad choices and do better, not beat myself up and throw myself into a state of 'I'm not worthy'. You speak of sin..who defines what a sin is? The religion I had shoved down my throat growing up said smoking cigarettes is a sin. My thoughts on sin are most unpopular with Christians...the only sin is self loathing, self hatred, self abuse. If we are each a 'knock off' of God, how could we possibly
not see our divinity.
If you really want to know about all the evil and misery visited upon the human race at the hands of our fellow humans...take a close look at organized religion. Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad...none of them were a 'religion'. Man took their beautiful truth's and institutionalized them.

I think the light was a great way of putting it actually...and agree with you. I'm just thinking that "god" could mean different things to different people. That the "light" just may not be the same for everyone.

I think of love too,, but I also believe in an unpreventable end to how we have come to live and an unpleasant one,,, I see God as saving some from that end,, not causing it,,,

Love to God is obedience or your destruction ....this is why there is a Hell but it will be in Heaven in the form of mental abuse

your life on Earth was of worldy things and sin and all that you have experience must be purged from your thoughts because such thoughts will only contaminate God's Kingdom

you must love an enemy equally as you would have once loved a child or spouse and this will ensure that no one is ever loved above God

every word you communicate must only have to do with the grace of God and every thought you have must only be about how to better serve God you are forbidden to have thoughts beyond that because they would not be in the grace of God....this will take place for all eternity ..give or take a zillion years or two .....now it's understandable why Satan decided to rebel and warn the human race