John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Nottice the shall not perish but have eternal life. Does not say shall be tortured or given great treasures, or ANYTHING along those lines. It's either perish or eternal life.

Ezekiel 33:11

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

In terms of the overall story. How did it change from the requirement of not being 'evil', to a requirement of believing that Jesus is the Son of God?

That's a pretty radical change right there.

Why should it be considered "Wicked" to simply not believe in a story? There is absolutely nothing 'wicked' about not believing in creation stories.

Christians don't believe in Zeus. Does that make them 'wicked'?

Of course not. So the idea that not believing in the Bible automatically makes someone 'wicked' is just as silly.

Because not believing in the bible/God's word you would then not follow it. And there are no grey areas, you either are following God/being perfect or you are not following God/being evil.

"Christians don't believe in Zeus. Does that make them 'wicked'?"

Does not make people wicked for not believing in fairly tails.

It's impossible for me to "follow" the teachings of Jesus because I already agreed with his moral values before I ever read them. When I read them all I did was shake my head in agreement.

The same thing is true after reading the teachings of Buddha which as far as I can see are precisely the same moral values.

So the idea of "following" the biblical God makes no sense since I already naturally have morals that go even higher and beyond what is taught in those stories.

Jesus taught by example to overturn money tables in a public square. I would never do anything like that.

Jesus also taught men to fish. IMHO being a vegetarian is even a higher moral value. So the teachings of Jesus aren't the utltimate morality, and therefore cannot possibly reflect the teaching of any "perfect God".

Clearly those stories cannot possibly be from any supposedly all-perfect God.

Moreover, the Old Testament is filled with clearly horrible morality that even Jesus himself refused to condone. Jesus could not possibly have been the son of the God of the Old Testament because he taught against the extremely poor moral values of that fairy tale.

If there is any truth to the existence of Jesus as a man, it necessarily must lie in the fact that he was rejecting the moral teaching of the OT and was crucified for his views.

Then the New Testament was written in the form of extreme lies that attempted to use Jesus as patsy to prop up the very mythology of Yahweh that Jesus himself denounce.

So to suggest that Jesus was the son of Yahweh is an abomination to Jesus.

"Jesus also taught men to fish"

Has no referance to any animal. Jesus taught men to be fisher of men. Not fish in general with a pole and line.

"Jesus taught by example to overturn money tables in a public square. I would never do anything like that."

Jesus over turned bartering tables inside a CHURCH. Church is a place for worshipping God, money has absolutely no grounds in a church.

That's even worse. Jesus become violent in a place of worship.

He clearly has no respect for God at all.

There was no justification for becoming physically violent and losing his temper. He could have simply voiced his disapproval of the actions in a civil manner.

Jesus exhibited no self-displine or respect for God at all in this instance. There's absolutely no excuse whatsover for his violence and loss of temper.

In fact, this is one of the rare places in the Bible where Jesus actually exhibits the behavior of Yahweh. Attempting to go back to his old ways of solving problems via erruptions of violence again.

A God who can't control his own temper and erupts unpredicably in fits of rage like an immature teenage boy.

And you expect me to bow down and worship an immature boy as God?

Would have done no good. If Jesus would have stayed civil and didn't exert his order of authority the men would have just ignored him thinking he was crazy.

But Jesus had no recognized authority in that society. Even if he was God he should have realized that.

They thought he was crazy anyway, and ended up crucifying. So Jesus lost in the end anyway.

He would have been far better off practicing what he actually taught and just turn the other cheek.

How did Jesus loose? Jesus didn't loose. So he had to go through the physical pain of being crucified for a little while. Jesus sacrificed himself to be the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus has always been and always will be, that little bit of time he had to endure the pain of crucifixion is nothing, is only a blink of an eye in how long Jesus has been. That doesn't make it any less important either. Jesus was still willing to endure that pain when he could have just not did it. But no Jesus chose to endure all the humiliation and pain so that the world could be saved through is name.

And that's the silliness of it isn't it?

There was never anything in the Bible that required "pain" as the payment for sins anyway.

That very idea is a sick demented idea that only comes into play when when trying to make sense out of an otherwise absurd story.

It must be horrible trying to be a "Jesus Salesman". The product is truly gross. The things you need to try to convince people of in order to sell Jesus as "god" are truly unbelievable and that's why the religion is quickly fading away into oblivion.

Whilst most everyone is intelligent enough to recognize that most of the moral teachings that were attributed to Jesus are indeed common sense human values that have been taught by sages throughout time. But all the other stuff that is required to believe that Jesus somehow 'paid' for the sins of man by being nailed to a pole are truly absurd.

No there is nothing that requires pain, that has nothing to do with anything. Before Jesus walked this earth people sacraficed animals and different important/needed objects needed for life for forgiveness of their sins. They sacrificed something they need to show to God they are remorseful for such actions. And Jesus sacrificed himself for us all. He give his life up and again went through all that pain for US. Not for him, for us.

The people who sacrificed animals to God did so because they had been taught that this is what God required that they do. They didn't just decide to do this on their own.

So if Jesus is the sacrificial lamb of God, then you have God sacrificing himself to himself. Which is utterly absurd.

???? do whaaaaaaaaaat? Jesus is the son of God.

It makes no difference. It's still a scenario where God is sacrificing to himself to appease himself.

It's makes no sense at all.

There is no one above God making God do this. Therefore it would be an insane act.

That makes absolutely no sense. Jesus was the one that sacrificed himself for the world, God didn't sacrifice anything. God was the one being sacrificed to.

That would only make sense if Jesus was a mortal man who decided on his own behalf to be the sacrificial lamb of all mankind.

But that's not how the story goes. Jesus was supposedly a miraculous divine birth of a virgin. He's supposedly an actual 'beggotten' son of God sent specifically for this mission.

Therefore it's not like a mortal man decided to sacrifice himself to God on behalf of all mankind. This would be God sacrificing himself to himself. Men had no say in the matter.

This is why it makes no sense.

No your statement makes no sence. Jesus is the only begotten child of God.......... Jesus IS NOT GOD. So therefor could not in any way be God sacrificing himself to himself, JESUS is the one that sacrificed himself. And Jesus didn't "have" to go through with it. He still had free will and chose to give his entire life to teaching us of what God wanted him to and in the end give his life up for us all.

All just accept your word on that then.