All of these estimates are on the right wing sites.

Accuracy is not verifiable.

So you say.

I haven't seen any of these right wing websites. One of my best friends was president of one of the largest management companies in the US and based in Boston. Her company did extensive demographic studies of the residents of the many billions of dollars of property they managed. The individual property managers were required to go inside the rental units and "know" every individual who lived at the property. She commonly exchanged data with her counterparts at other large management companies across the US.

My cousin is head surgeon at the emergency ward of a major Houston hospital. The usual conversation during dinner is how the illegals are pushing the hospitals closer and closer to bankruptcy. The demographics are well understood by the hospitals as the statistical data on population is not only necessary to the operation of the hospital, much of it is required by state and federal regulations. Hospitals in California are already closing.

The estimates of the number of illegals that get through is from the head border patrol agents, not right wingers.

Just because your only source of information is the internet and you choose to blame "right wing websites" for poor sources of information does not mean that I am limited to, or even bother to look at, those sources. Anyone, who knows ANYTHING, about the true state of illegal immigration in the US knows the official federal estimates are a joke.

There's an elephant in this room.

The Elephant is called "La Reconquista"

La Reconquista is a movement centered in Central America and in the many, though not all, of the spanish speaking communities from Florida to Washington State.

The Soldiers, or Soldados, of this movement call themselves "La Raza" which is spanish for "The Race".

Their aim, their objective, their mission is to retake the States of the Southwest and indeed all of the United States, which they consider to belong to the now-extinct Aztec Empire. The extinction of which they place blame on Europeans, whom they call genocidal invaders.

Public Schools in Mexico teache that Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California, Colorado and most of the rest of the Western US, by right, belongs to Mexico and that all those territories were stolen from them in illegitimate wars and land swindles. They are taugh that it is their duty to re-take this land. That it is their destiny.

I have heard people speaking of this, in spanish, thinking I, el gringo, couldn't understand them. Their rhetoric is nothing short of appalling. Their ends, themselves are genocidal. The seek to expell or exterminate from the New World all people descended from European blood. They seek to re-occupy the United States and bring her down from within, by overloading her social services systems and infrastructure. Anchor babies, out-of-country cash wires, under the table income.

All these things are intended to take down America from within. And will take the complicity of the Democrat party as a temporary and convenient ally to help achieve their ends and the sympathy of guilt laden whites as political weapons against the rest of the country.

They will cry racism when challenged on their "right" to be here.

So when we discuss the issue of "illegal immigration" we must take into account the motivation of those we're talking about.

If you take a snake into your bed, do not be suprised when it bites you.

What I don't get about the La Raza is that they speak Spanish. The ancient Aztec's as they want to call themselves or represent as a reason to reclaim land didn't speak Spanish. So how is it that they can go around teaching others that the land is theres if they don't truly represent Aztec culture.

Besides Aztec culture didn't reign in North America as I remember.

So in the end what I am trying to figure out is if they truly sat down and discussed this, where would they end up with a rightful conclusion.

I think they just want to have a culture dominated by their language and create hatred to the Europeans, although they themselves and their ancestoral heritage also come from Europe namely Spain.

Well what it is worth, I hope they will understand that violence is not a solution to this problem and they will be stopped by authorities if made obvious.

Concerning illegal immigrants it is very true that not only hispanics try to enter this country illegaly. A great portion of Asians also through ship freight try to enter the West Coast of America, for example in Seattle.

A good movie on this that really got my eyes watery is about a Vietnamese child who had a American father that participated in the the war left him. The son who later became a young adult wanted to go to America to find his father. Later he found out why his father never came back to him. He was blind and ashamed. He got blind because of the war. A grenade or something blew up.

Here is an article fro USA Today in 2006 about the Feds claiming 11 million and their methods being flawed.

If the feds say it was 11 million in 2006 and the border patrol says AT LEAST 3,000,000 a year are coming in, then there would be at least 20,000,000 now. The reality is that there are more than that.

USA Today Magazine, September 2006
Summary:
The article focuses on the increase in the number of illegal aliens in the U.S. While Federal officials insist that only 11-12,000,000 illegal immigrants currently live in the U.S., a book asserts the number is closer to 30,-000,000, one-tenth of the entire U.S. population. Minutemen: The Battle to Secure America's Borders, written by Minuteman Project founder Jim Gilchrist and Jerome R. Corsi, documents the flaws in the government's estimates and offers a revised count of illegals in the U.S.
Excerpt from Article:

While Federal officials insist that only 11-12,000,000 illegal immigrants currently live in America, a new book asserts the number is closer to 30,-000,000--one-tenth of the entire U.S. population. Minutemen: The Battle to Secure America's Borders, written by Minuteman Project founder Jim Gilchrist and Jerome R. Corsi, documents the flaws in the government's estimates and offers a revised count of illegals on U.S. soil.

"Even defenders of the 'official' estimate of 12,000,000 illegal immigrants acknowledge that it is flawed, but the magnitude of the flaw is greater than anyone in Washington will admit," notes Gilchrist.

"[In August], the Senate refused to approve the funds necessary to construct the same border fence that it authorized in May. Clearly, the Federal government does not want to close our nation's open borders, so why should we believe it is being honest in estimating the number of illegal immigrants already in the country? Telling the truth would make it too difficult to get political support for another amnesty program."

"One out of every 10 births in the U.S. is to an illegal immigrant," observes Corsi, who co-authored the 2004 best-seller, Unfit for Command (that very well may have contributed to John Kerry's loss in the presidential election). "The Federal government and the states pay out billions each year in social programs to the 30,000,000 illegal immigrants in the country. Welfare benefits, coupled with open borders, have created an enormous underclass of cheap labor for farmers and businesses, but it's come at an enormous expense to U.S. taxpayers."…

I've been watching this thread with interest because although I am not schooled in the statistics of illegal alien numbers, I would guess that the published "official" numbers are very low.

I happen to live in an area where it is not uncommon for MULTIPLE undocumented families share a dwelling and the census numbers on which the published figures are routinely based are from self-reported/unverifiable responses. Usually there are multiple pregnant women in those families, as well - almost as if it's a race to have a baby here in order to secure a place based on the child's citizenship.

There are entire industries that cater to undocumented workers/residents who operate on a cash only basis. This costs every other citizen in terms of the overhead/expense that businesses incur to support the illegal population (utility companies, for example) because the costs ARE passed along in your rates (I speak from experience in that regard.) That doesn't begin to address the costs associated with entitlement benefits under the welfare system we also all pay for.

These are my observations, but just ASK a naturalized citizen from Mexico (for example) what they think and you'll get an answer very much like mine - and they don't have any patience with those who come illegally when they themselves followed the rules. That's not a "left wing" or a "right wing" comment but given that they know the ropes first hand, probably has more validiy than anyone else's observation, including my own.

Considering that the families are Catholic and do not believe in birth control has nothing to do with the large families, of course. It has to be that anchor baby, right?

To assume makes an *** of ....well you know the rest.

As for bigotry within races of people, it exists and shows it's ugly face in situations like this.

In truth if people are living their lives and concerned with their own issues, they could care less how another person lives and survives unless something isn't right within them and they feel the need to run others down.

You hit the nail on the head. They get free medical care and bog down the emergency rooms, their children get specialized attention in the public schools taking away from American English speaking children, they bring diseases into our country, they cause something like 47% of all alcohol related deaths, they have rights up the kazoo...the list goes on. I'll pay more for bananas and lettuce. I'm paying through the nose for the other stuff they're creating. But, presidents, candidates, senators, etc get real quiet when the issue comes up.
Some would say I'm not being very nice. I don't care about nice when it comes to this subject. And the illegals are not all Mexican so can't hang a label on me.

I'm not making assumptions..I'm making observations. Those are very different things, IMO. The bottom line is that for whatever reason these events/births/etc happen, they do impact me and my life.

LOL how do they impact your life and you? This is going to be good...lol

The same way they impact yours and everyone else's - through taxes, through the specialized educational programs in our local schools that take money away from other programs (making our students more well educated by international standards in math/science/technology, for example,) through increased public assistance costs, through the costs associated with things like customer service centers kept open for the cash-only population (11 years ago, a business analysis showed that a single center cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $168,000 per year to keep open in costs directly attributable to the cash only/largely illegal population in our community...that cost gets passed on to other rate payers.)

I don't care who comes to the United States LEGALLY...I welcome diversity and the entire "melting pot" our country provides. I just have a problem with those who don't follow the rules. Not only do they impact each and every one of our lives in ways such as I've listed above, but they also keep those immigrants who are willing to "do the right thing" from getting their just results (citizenship) in a more fair manner. Illegals impede the process of naturalization and cause bigotry within their own cultural demographic that can only undermine the eventual happy outcome for others who come to the USA by legal means.

Don't include me in your "logic".

They don't bother me at all. Apart from the victimization they recieve here that worries me.

If you don't want to have your taxes go to help people then stop paying them in protest. But don't impose what I consider prejudice onto all of us who do not mind paying our taxes or that our taxes go to help people of all types.

I think thats a nice sentiment but a flawed one. What would have happened if people had only been concerned with their own happy lives during slave times? Sometimes people care about what happens with others because there is something right within them....dontcha think? I think laws are only as useful as their application. If they arent applied and enforced they are useless. Millions of immigrants all over the world come here every year through the immigration process because it is the LAW period. It becomes a useless law if you begin to say that some people shouldnt have to follow it.

What if I were a teacher who required at least an 80 percent on an exam to pass but then I allowed one student to pass with 60 percent because he had a rough home life and stayed after each night to help clean and grade papers? The law is the law and although empathy is an important part of justice, so is fairness and the law must be applied equally to everyone.

Hateful and bloodthirsty...that is what this Christian nation has become.
I'm standing on the un popular side of the spectrum with Dragoness on this .

If you see a wrong doing that harms people at some level of course speak up or act. The illegal thing only hurts the illegals. They are here with no laws to protect them, no recourse in cases of abuse, prejudice that would choke an elephant, etc...

The Illegal issue is a human issue so therefore the human issue is much more important than anybody's taxes or having to have an english class in school.

And I don't understand how it can be the unpopular side when we are dealing with human lives.

The illegal thing hurts the illegals,which is one more reason to do something about it. My protest has nothing to do with taxes, Im a firm believer that my taxes will be spent on far more things that I have no say in than the few I might agree to so I have no problem agreeing to assist others. My protest is in the uneven application of the immigration laws....plain and simple. It is a slap in the face to all the people who follow the laws to come here to allow others to just jump the line.

Hateful shouldn't be part of the equation for EITHER side of this discussion...

I only made observations based on the reality of where I live. Take them as fact or fiction as you see fit, but for anyone to impy that my observations are without any credibility or that they make me an a$$ or to assume that I don't feel a heartfelt compassion for people is wrong. I oversee a non-profit agency that serves kids - many of whom I can pretty well guarantee are from families of illegals -and I would never deny services to those children. That doesn't change the fact that the NUMBERS are manipulated according to whatever political agenda gov't has & that the impact of illegals does touch everyone. That was the point of my observation - that the numbers are certainly flawed.

If you believe those numbers, than I'd have to expect that you believe every other thing that ever gets reported or promoted by government (BOTH sides of the aisle) or media or whatever.

I would just ask people to listen with open minds and accept other's comments with the same kindness that you propose for the subject population. I am not being hateful with anyone else...why should anyone respond hatefully to me?