Wrong again, "Armydoc". I know this stuff inside-out. No need to cut and
paste. Hell, I knew this stuff when you were still in diapers.

My offer to help you learn was sincere, if that is really what you want
to do.

Like I tell my emplyees: I need answers, not excuses.

Hey, AB. Good to see you posting, man.

The arguments for Israel's legitimacy are both "Biblical" and secular.
From a legal point of view, the Biblical claim has little strength.

The principle argument for the Palestinians is that their land was
seized by the Zionists, first through Zionist immigration that was
forced on them by the British colonial government between 1915 and 1939,
and then by military invasion and occupation by Zionist forces beginning
mostly in 1945-6. This, the legal argument states, violated the
Palestinian right to self-determination and independence.

There may be some websites that assert that Palestine was given to
Palestinians by God, but in the same way that the Jewish Biblical claim
is legally irrelevant, so would such a pro-Palestinian religion-based
assertion. (Can you send me a url or two in which the Muslim religious
claim is made? Thanks...)

Of course, on the web we can find all kinds of bizarre and
unsubstantiated assertions!

Which is why actual study is required to understand something like the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Would that it were easier, but it is not.

Oceans

Look in the lineages within the Quran. It is there and will be of much
more information to you than any biased and filled with a self
proclaimed Inmam web site could be.

The interesting thing to me is that if you take all of the linegages
from these two books and set them side by side you discover that one
leads to Seth by one line and the other leads to Seth by their line.

They are brothers by their own books.

AB and Oceans, I know electronics inside and out but rather than
jabbering to hear myself talk (usually, lol), when someone presents me
with a problem, I offer possible solutions. It shows that you go a
little deeper than simply a talking head 9love that band by the way).

Hi, Zapchaser!

You have put your finger on the $billion dollar question. Well, a lot
more than 1 billion actually, given what this conflict is costing the US
every year. Anyway....

I do have a lot of thoughts on this, and would be happy to share them.
But it takes a lot of time to compose all this stuff.... Perhaps we can
open up a thread on this question alone.

I do want to restate: if we are going to understand what the solutions
can be, we HAVE to understand the conflict, its history and its
dynamics.

I know, I know, we live in a world where quicky solutions are demanded,
and cut-and-paste 'knowledge' substitutes for real understanding.

If I understand correctly, you run a business, so you know that
understanding the business -- the customers, the manufacturing
processes, the services, employment law, the regulatory environment,
OSHA, the supply chain, book-keeping, etc. -- is required BEFORE you can
make good decisions and develop a sound business plan.

So any complex conflict is a bit like this too.

So are you up for a fairly intense discussion on the possible solutions?
This is a question not just for Zapcatcher, but for everyone who is
reading this.

It is a serious question, as no one, including me, wants to waste his
time....

Oceans

AB, I am interested in the Seth-and-Seth framework. Lots of people are
trying to find a religious common ground for the Palestinians and the
Israelis, thinking that this may provide some basis for some sort of
rapprochement. Personally I am skeptical, but if there is any glimmer of
this helping, I would like to know more about this.

One thing to keep in mind: Palestinians are both Muslim AND Christian.
When the Israelis drove the Palestinians out partially in 1948-9 and
further in 1967, they drove both Muslim and Christian Palestinians from
their homes.

Is it possible, AB, to scoop up the Christians into the 'brother aginst
brother' framework?

The efforts at religious rapprochement that I am familiar with are being
carried out under the heading of the three 'Abrahamic' religions.

Of course I do. I would not have wasted my time asking. Thank
you As far as business goes, I count on the advice,
recommendations, and knowlege of those I employ to make informed
critical decisions. The end resut? I come up with an answer based on the
information I received. Then I put it into action. If I were to sit
around waxing poetic all day long I would only impress myself and
nothing would get done. **** in one hand and wish in the other. See wich
one fills up first. Knowhatamean? Too many people here who continually
project their starry eyed substance free comments without offering any
real life solutions. No offense AB

Zap, I understand what you are saying about knowing electronics inside
out and focusing on solutions for your customer.

In your business, your customers aren't trying to understand the nature
of electricity, or the devices that modulate electricity, or sense it.
They don't need to know what a mirror galvanometer is, for example, or a
chip, or solenoid. They just come to you as a recognized engineer who
will reliably give them a solution.

If the Israelis, Palestinians and Americans hired me collectively as
their expert to give them a solution(s), I could do so, BUT, they
haven't....so we are left in the world of argumentation. In politics
anyone can shoot their mouths off, regardless of how ignorant they are.
Freedom of speech is a value we all hold in common. And so endless
debate ensues, wasting a lot of time while conflicts often grow worse.

If one of your customers came to you and said that a solenoid is powered
by fairy dust, you would just look at them like they are ignorant, offer
your solution, and if they insisted that it be powered by fairy dust you
would usher them out, shaking your head gently.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has a lot of fairy dust opinions
floating around.... It takes work to sweep it out of the way, so that
real discussions about real solutions can be pursued effectively. And,
unfortunately, there are a few people out there who have a particular
political agenda to advance, and they are happy to spread the fairy dust
around if that is going to get anyone to support their agendas.

That is why I don't want to get sucked into a discussion on solutions
if they are going to go nowhere. It is a lot easier for me simply to
discuss the history and current dynamics of the conflict, and let people
come to their own thoughts about what the solutions might be.

I know this is not what you are asking for, Zapcatcher, and I hope that
my response here and above makes sense.

As I said before, I am willing to explore this further with anyone who
wants to pursue it seriously, that is, put some genuine time into
studying it and the options that lie before us. I do wish that it were
possible to address this quickly and easily.

Oceans

The principle argument for the Palestinians is that their land was
seized by the Zionists, first through Zionist immigration that was
forced on them by the British colonial government between 1915 and 1939,
and then by military invasion and occupation by Zionist forces beginning
mostly in 1945-6. This, the legal argument states, violated the
Palestinian right to self-determination and independence.


see oceans this is what im talking about... you know that this is
something that has been ran with for awhile... but the assertion that
this is the whole of the problem is not very accurate at all... the
isreali's would have a better claim to the land that they settled long
before the palestinians came calling. you only have to date the
architecture to have a common sense idea about who was around first.

of course i want to learn, we all should equally. but we dont we take
the easy way out sometimes dont we, it is our flaw.


doc


and the only thing i know BTW is common sense, if it doesnt pass the
logic test then most times it aint right.

Oceans the problem with the brother against brother idea is that is is
stopped by the religious doctrine that has been overlayed upon the
prophets.

Each religion has doctored its books to make claim to being the 'Only
True' religion with the 'Only Correct Prophet'.

Kinda hard to fix that.

Oceans, have you ever heard of brainstorming? Everyone throws ideas onto
the table and then they all argue the pro's and con's. Everyone not
involved stands around on the other side of the door when they should be
working, acting busy while whispering to each other your basic office
chatter. Those on one side of the door have the courage and desire to
make the attempt at solving problems. Those on the other side offer only
chatter. No solutions. No courage. That is why they are not at the
boardroom table. I appreciate the time you spent composing your answer
but to quote Donald Trump....

Yup. Hard to fix that so why try? Just sit there. Offer nothig. Office
chatter.... Ayone out there have any ideas? Put em on the table.

Zap ideas to be valid must approach the problems with a firm understand
of what the problem is.

Define the problem is the first step not the last.

This particular problem has roots in antiquity. To solve it requires an
understanding of many differing areas.

Brainstorming can only be effective (on a perticular problem) when you
have an understanding of the problem.

Office chatter does not help in a brain session. Neither does the
person that throws soloution after soloution which has no bearing on the
actual problem. That would be know as brain farts which merely stink up
the air.

Some have said that the Lebanese government that is now in power is a
puppet government of Syria. Syria claims to hold the torch in support of
the Palestinian struggle.

Lebanese soldiers opened fire on a camp yesterday, the fighting
continues even today.

Supposedly they claim that Alqaeda members were hiding among the
refugees. Which is also weird since Alqaeda also claims to be a standard
bearer for the people of palestine as well.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Actually the current Government is anti syria... They got rid of the
sryias army. Now they intend to disarm this fatah islamic movement what
has ties to AL-qaeda. They couldnt disarm the other big party who was
fighting Isreal last year? and they are determine to disarm this one.Yes
in the civil war there were 2 big christian armies, who eventually
allied with some islamic army... This is all from memory, and what is
happening now if from the news.. Syria dares not to enter this
conflict..

Sorry Trizar ... Syria is, and has been meddling with Lebanon for years.

Who do you think the Hezbollah are backed by?

It still believes that Lebanon is actually a part of Syria.

One of the multitude of reasons that it cant and wont get its grubby
little hands dirty by invading Lebanon is that the Lebanese people are
loved by the majority of the world and the last thing that Syria wants
is its Arab Nations brothers disowning it.

Set up by France after World War I as a predominantly Christian state,
Lebanon is now about 60% Muslim, 40% Christian.

It has 18 officially recognised religious sects.

While Lebanon has plenty of problems of its own, it has also become the
arena where many of the region's conflicts and rivalries are played out.

The long conflict which ravaged the country from 1975 until 1990 was
both a civil war and a regional war.

It left Lebanon firmly under Syria's thumb, and with a southern strip of
territory occupied by Israel as a buffer zone.

Lebanese politics have resulted in a succession of wars and atrocities

Israel has repeatedly intervened in Lebanon to protect its northern
border.

The civil war also drew in Iran to fight Israel and support the Lebanese
Shia.

In 1982, with Iranian help, the Shia created Hezbollah, (the Party of
God), which has evolved into a major player in Lebanese politics and an
important ally of Iran and Syria.

Israeli forces eventually withdrew in 2000 and Syrian forces in 2005.

But while Syria no longer has a military presence, it has retained
political influence through its relationship with Hezbollah.

---------
Fanta - History shows that the British (due to 250 years of colonial
rule) did cause the troubles in the Israeli/Palestinian issue.

It was a case of offering both side the land, and then standing back as
they kicked the crap out of each other. (and continue to do so)
---------

Define the problem is the first step not the last.
(see next statement)
This particular problem has roots in antiquity.
(see previous statement)

More double speak. I rest my case. I'm off to search for a solution
while you sit there and polish your peace sign. Cheers bud
Dust off the cobwebs every once in awhile, mkay?

I will give that considered opinion all the thought it deserves.

Your euphorian time is different than mine. By the time you get done
pondering I will be retired and out on the lake fishing.

Not if the fish are all dead.

And the lake is full of rotted human corpses.

My time and thoughts are with the human race and what a single small
person can do to make a difference.

And I see by centuries and generatios and the time of my grandson. May
HE be able to retire and fish in a clear lake with many fish in his
time.