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| Topic: Religion = Evolution | |
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Edited by
MahanMahan
on
Fri 04/24/09 08:21 AM
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You raise a very good point, Mr. Metalwing... Very thought provoking, indeed. It is noble of you to ask us to put away our differences, stop worrying about whether or not God exists and instead t seek out reasons for our own existence on Earth. We should all be more concerned with the damage we're inflicting on our planet and come up with ways to save the Earth.
However, I believe that atheists and agnostics are more in tune with saving the planet and our environment thean religious folks are. Atheists such as myself believe it is our responsibility to save the planet, and by doing so, save ourselves. Whereas religious people shrug off responsibility for it's always God's will... If the planet is being destroyed, it is God's will... They don't care, cuz God has a plan for them. He has created this magical place called Heaven and they will all eventually live there for eternity and so their short lives here on Earth is but a blink of an eye compared to an eternity of living in this place called Heaven. |
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Hi all. I'm sorry if this turns out to be rather long but this is a subject that I have a great deal of interest in and I have done a fare amount of personal study on as well.As for cloning and all that. I suggest you put it aside and get clarity as to the origin of humanity first then all the other things will begin to fall into place.And you will see the truth is more amazing than fiction.
The theory you're thinking of sounds much to me like theistic evolution. It's actually a lame attempt largely by christians to try and reconcile the biblical creation account and popular darwinism. Put planely. If you look at real science, theistic evolution doesn't hold water. To make a long story short. Scientific evidence demonstrates quite conclusivly that all that is was intelligently designed. From the law of thermal dynamics, to the irreduceable complexity of the simplest life forms. We see if we look objectivly and with intellectual honesty that there is in fact a creator. Evolution having no basis in reality is in fact a religion that requires absolute blind faith and abandonment of intellegent rational thinking. So I say. You can sit there and ponder philisophcaly and feel that you're having deep thoughts that some how make you more spiritual or you can just get informed and be real with yourself and the world around you. I strongly recommend the latter.Especialy if your ultimate question is."Why do I exist?" The question itself is based on absolutivity and thus requires an absolute answer.You can not find that answer if you will not look at the absolute evidence. Science and nature are each like a finger pointing away at the moon. If you refuse to follow it's trajectory you will miss out on all that heavenly glory. Don't ignore the finger it's purpose is to reveal that which you seek. And just as importantly. Don't worship the finger or you force it into a possition that can only mislead you. You'll be settling for counterfeit answers and though it may appease you for a time you will in the end have much less than is available to you. I suggest that you seek out a video by a man named Lee Strobel. It's called the caes for a creator. This man is a christian and supports the beliefe that the God of the bible is that creator. You don't have to addopt that belief if you don't want to.I don't fully agree with him on a few spiritual issues myself. I recomend it because of the accurate information they pressnt in regards to scientific evedence. If you want to make a 1/4 million dollars you can go to www.drdino.com with just one real piece of evidence for the theory of evolution. The offer has been up for years now and I believe it's still open. I hope that my input is helpfull and not un welcome. I wish you all well as you seek the answers you desire. |
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No worries dude.... All opinions and points of view are welcome, no matter how out of touch with reality they may be.
Thank you for your input. |
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However, I believe that atheists and agnostics are more in tune with saving the planet and our environment thean religious folks are. That depends on which religion you put them in. American Indians worshiped the Earth and were horrified at what the "white man" did to it. Yeah, some Indians drove herds of buffalo off a cliff to get one to eat, but that was the exception, not the rule. Judaic Christianity has historically been the worst at caring for the planet. Eastern religions tend to teach "oneness" with the earth but end up causing fantastic damage to feed their families. Much of the coral reef system in Micronesia has been destroyed by catching fish with dynamite. The real problem is that an insufficient percentage of the world's population cares enough to do anything and the ones that do care can't do anything about the majority that is causing the majority of the damage. We are devolving. We are becoming a copy of Easter Island. |
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Metalwing,
Yes, we live in a world of contradictions. thank you for your eye opening statements. |
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METALWING,
Apparently, you're right by saying: The real problem is that an insufficient percentage of the world's population cares enough to do anything and the ones that do care can't do anything about the majority that is causing the majority of the damage. We are devolving. We are becoming a copy of Easter Island. Luckily,you seem to be not the only one pondering about this eminent problem -- Humanity seems to be fighting the Warld War III for the ultimate survival against the fiercest of the "enemies", * OVERPOPULATION *! ! ! As during the war, a Command Decision is necessary to defeat the "enemy" -- somebody has to perish so that others will survive... For that reason, I suspect, AIDS has been introduced to the area of the most rampant population explosion, i.e. Africa. (the fact of its spreading all over the world has been an unexpected -- though quite fortunate -- side effect, since the virus seems to hit primerily those who tend to disregard the laws of moral living, except of those, of course, who's got infected thru blood transfusion... (But even in those cases, it is beyond comprehension why would A,B,C, etc, remain unharmed, while X,Y,Z would get infected! Would that be their KARMA in this reincarnation? ? ? (who knows...) Another venue of Humanity's sastainability is the Space exploration -- colonization of the Solar System: No wonder, while the world is suffering another economic slow-down, the plans are being made to send an AMS -- Autonomous Mobile System --to Mars (and the Russians are training the austronauts for the same reason), approximately THIS FALL! Apparently, Humanity has already (or will soon have) reached the point of "No Return" on this planet, if the space exploration appears to be necessary and feasible at this time... (another 50-100 years -- unless some major breakthrough ins't made!) Another words, do not dispaire -- Humanity still has a few tricks up its sleeve! (though some harsh "Command Measures" would be necessarty * * *) |
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 Charles Robert Darwin was a naturalist who proposed that all living creatures are related by common ancestors.Charles Darwin was born in England in 1809 and died in 1882.Darwin was a member of the Royal Geographical Society.His Alma Mater was the Univerity of Edinburgh and the University of Cambridge.His academic advisors were Adam Sedgwick and John Stevens Henslow.His best known works were the "Voyage of the Beagle","On The Origin Of Species" and his theory of Natural Selection.He won several major awards in his lifetime.The Royal Medal in 1853,the Wallaston Medal in 1859,and the Copley Medal in 1864.One of his major influences was Charles Lyell, and he in turned heavily influenced Thomas Henry Huxley and George John Romanes.He was a member of the Church of England although his family had a Unitarian background,and he is known to have embraced Agnosticism after 1851
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Edited by
MahanMahan
on
Sat 04/25/09 12:43 AM
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Mirror Mirror,
Thank you... I love Darwin as a Christian loves Jesus. You should read what I just posted on the other thread, "Evolution VS. Creation Made Clear!" You are now officially off my list of happy minglers that I must wage Holy Jihad on...! |
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METALWING, Apparently, you're right by saying: The real problem is that an insufficient percentage of the world's population cares enough to do anything and the ones that do care can't do anything about the majority that is causing the majority of the damage. We are devolving. We are becoming a copy of Easter Island. Luckily,you seem to be not the only one pondering about this eminent problem -- Humanity seems to be fighting the Warld War III for the ultimate survival against the fiercest of the "enemies", * OVERPOPULATION *! ! ! As during the war, a Command Decision is necessary to defeat the "enemy" -- somebody has to perish so that others will survive... For that reason, I suspect, AIDS has been introduced to the area of the most rampant population explosion, i.e. Africa. (the fact of its spreading all over the world has been an unexpected -- though quite fortunate -- side effect, since the virus seems to hit primerily those who tend to disregard the laws of moral living, except of those, of course, who's got infected thru blood transfusion... (But even in those cases, it is beyond comprehension why would A,B,C, etc, remain unharmed, while X,Y,Z would get infected! Would that be their KARMA in this reincarnation? ? ? (who knows...) Another venue of Humanity's sastainability is the Space exploration -- colonization of the Solar System: No wonder, while the world is suffering another economic slow-down, the plans are being made to send an AMS -- Autonomous Mobile System --to Mars (and the Russians are training the austronauts for the same reason), approximately THIS FALL! Apparently, Humanity has already (or will soon have) reached the point of "No Return" on this planet, if the space exploration appears to be necessary and feasible at this time... (another 50-100 years -- unless some major breakthrough ins't made!) Another words, do not dispaire -- Humanity still has a few tricks up its sleeve! (though some harsh "Command Measures" would be necessarty * * *) I am not sure AIDS was introduced to Africa. I think it started there. How it got from monkeys to humans is not a pleasant thought. It is interesting that if you wanted to maximize the fatality of the disease, you would extend the lifespan of the infected population and make them well enough to have sex. With the typical multi partner sex patterns in Africa, this process would allow each infected male to spread AIDS to dozens of additional partners. This is exactly what the US is doing with the anti viral drugs they are sending to Africa. No one has the guts to remove billions of humans from this planet. At some point around twenty billion humans (not very far away time wise), most non domesticated animals will die. Most life in the ocean will be gone for purposes of food,and the rainforests will be deserts. Global warming will accellerate rapidily moving most grain producing regions north. However, the soils in many northern regions are too rocky to cultivate properly. The planet may have problems producing oxygen due to insufficient biomass. An interesting scenario is Pakistan being taken over by the Taliban and using some of the nuclear arsenal to wipe out Israel. Since Israel would be wiped out, the US would be left to take out someone, probably the Taliban area of Pakistan and Iran. However, from a military standpoint, it would make more sense to take out all of Pakistan since the non Taliban areas would still be controlled by the Taliban and still have nuclear capability. The number of small nukes required might cause nuclear winter and reduce global warming for quite a while. It might also cause world famine in the process which might set off another nuclear exchange significantly reducing the world's population. We don't have the money or technology to colonize other planets. For it to work the colony would have to sustain itself and we are no where near that point. I am afraid we are about to ride this horse into the ground. Human overpopulation is a problem far worse than that which the general population is aware. The Earth is dying and there does not appear to be any way to reverse the damage. Ironically, it is having the exact opposite effect of evolution. |
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Edited by
MahanMahan
on
Sat 04/25/09 07:48 PM
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Now, now... Mr. Metalwing,
Let's think happy thoughts... Take some deep breaths, in with the good, out with the bad, in with the good, out with the bad, ... Ahhh, don'choo feel better now? I know I do. Ok, let's stretch our upper body now... keep your back straight... just follow my lead... relax your butt cheeks, slowly insert your head... as illustrated below: Now don't you feel all your worries just disappear? Good... Now shake it off... 
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I don't believe the world is as bad off as it is often depicted as being. The hypothesis of anthropogenic climate change is falling apart and if you look past all the scary headlines and tree hugger blogs, you'll find the truth of the state of planet is a lot less scary than they would have you believe. There are plenty of areas for improvement, but there is no evidence of an imminent demise.
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This week PBS did a special on contaminated water on Frontline. It is also available on their website. They highlighted the PCB content on the nation's water supply and documented the death of the killer whale population on the West coast and the overall destruction of Chesapeake Bay on the East coast. This wasn't news to me since I have to deal with it in business.
The conversion of Rain forest to desert has been documented for many years. Poor farmers clear cut the timber but the nutrient poor soil only supports a crop or two so the process starts again. The abandoned land can't support deep rooted plants so the heat turns it to desert. (it is near the equator). When I was in Alaska last, I met some fishermen who were about to give up their profession because the stocks of fish had been decimated and alaska has the healthiest fish stocks in the world. I almost went Halibut fishing but all the big ones have been gone for years. The Japonese developed a "factory fishing ship" years ago that encircled the school of tuna, cod, whatever, with a net and then slowly closed the trap getting every fish. The schools are almost all gone now. The Eastern seaboard near Cape Cod used to have what was thought to be unlimited cod stocks. They are all gone. The southern Atlantic,Pacific and Mederterran fish stocks can't support standard fishing practice anymore. The temperature of the Pacific Ocean has risen to the point where box jellyfish populations have exploded. I am not a "tree hugger". I am more material scientist/engineer. I do keep up with the news and for many years have watched what has happened around the world. Since I have traveled almost everywhere for one reason or another, I have spoken with people all over who have stories to tell about how the earth is changing, especially the forests and oceans. The simplest test is to check the hottest days in recorded history. They are almost all recent. I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything. I am simply pointing out that a form of evolution is occurring which may or may not have anything to do with religion but sure is about to make a big impact on the human race. These areas are easy to verify. Look them up. As for the gloom and doom. ... I'm the happiest person I know! What will be ... will be. Maybe I'll post my coconut, pecan, walnut bread in the recipe section 
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METALWING, Apparently, you're right by saying: The real problem is that an insufficient percentage of the world's population cares enough to do anything and the ones that do care can't do anything about the majority that is causing the majority of the damage. We are devolving. We are becoming a copy of Easter Island. Luckily,you seem to be not the only one pondering about this eminent problem -- Humanity seems to be fighting the Warld War III for the ultimate survival against the fiercest of the "enemies", * OVERPOPULATION *! ! ! As during the war, a Command Decision is necessary to defeat the "enemy" -- somebody has to perish so that others will survive... For that reason, I suspect, AIDS has been introduced to the area of the most rampant population explosion, i.e. Africa. (the fact of its spreading all over the world has been an unexpected -- though quite fortunate -- side effect, since the virus seems to hit primerily those who tend to disregard the laws of moral living, except of those, of course, who's got infected thru blood transfusion... (But even in those cases, it is beyond comprehension why would A,B,C, etc, remain unharmed, while X,Y,Z would get infected! Would that be their KARMA in this reincarnation? ? ? (who knows...) Another venue of Humanity's sastainability is the Space exploration -- colonization of the Solar System: No wonder, while the world is suffering another economic slow-down, the plans are being made to send an AMS -- Autonomous Mobile System --to Mars (and the Russians are training the austronauts for the same reason), approximately THIS FALL! Apparently, Humanity has already (or will soon have) reached the point of "No Return" on this planet, if the space exploration appears to be necessary and feasible at this time... (another 50-100 years -- unless some major breakthrough ins't made!) Another words, do not dispaire -- Humanity still has a few tricks up its sleeve! (though some harsh "Command Measures" would be necessarty * * *) I am not sure AIDS was introduced to Africa. I think it started there. How it got from monkeys to humans is not a pleasant thought. *** I suppose that's been a field test to confirm the virus' effectiveness before actually unleashing it. The fairy tale about monkeys is the cover up designed to keep those pacifists quiet... It is interesting that if you wanted to maximize the fatality of the disease, you would extend the lifespan of the infected population and make them well enough to have sex. With the typical multi partner sex patterns in Africa, this process would allow each infected male to spread AIDS to dozens of additional partners. This is exactly what the US is doing with the anti viral drugs they are sending to Africa. *** And that's exactly my point: AIDS is a very efficient desease because it has a very long incubation period -- many people are still having sex unaware of being infected, thereby spreading it over and over again! * * * (not to mention many idiots who purposely continue having sex -- out of spite! No one has the guts to remove billions of humans from this planet. At some point around twenty billion humans (not very far away time wise), most non domesticated animals will die. Most life in the ocean will be gone for purposes of food,and the rainforests will be deserts. Global warming will accellerate rapidily moving most grain producing regions north. However, the soils in many northern regions are too rocky to cultivate properly. The planet may have problems producing oxygen due to insufficient biomass. *** Another words, you Are confirming my statement about Humanity's passing the point of No Return on this planet(?) * * * An interesting scenario is Pakistan being taken over by the Taliban and using some of the nuclear arsenal to wipe out Israel. Since Israel would be wiped out, the US would be left to take out someone, probably the Taliban area of Pakistan and Iran. However, from a military standpoint, it would make more sense to take out all of Pakistan since the non Taliban areas would still be controlled by the Taliban and still have nuclear capability. The number of small nukes required might cause nuclear winter and reduce global warming for quite a while. It might also cause world famine in the process which might set off another nuclear exchange significantly reducing the world's population. *** You know, even Command Measures I mentioned pale in comparison with your forecast! And that is precisely why those measures will be necessary -- avoiding the doom you're picturing: pre-emptive strikes would avert that scenario... As far as Israel is concerned, I wouldn't be so fast in assuming its incapability of defending itself: the only reason Israel still hasn't nuked anybody is because the US isp resuring it to keep away! We don't have the money or technology to colonize other planets. For it to work the colony would have to sustain itself and we are no where near that point. I am afraid we are about to ride this horse into the ground. *** As I mentioned, I'm talking about the next 50-100 years -- definitely not in the next 24 hours... But even today -- as we speak -- the austronauts are getting ready for the mission (sometime this Fall)! Human overpopulation is a problem far worse than that which the general population is aware. The Earth is dying and there does not appear to be any way to reverse the damage. Ironically, it is having the exact opposite effect of evolution. *** Yeah, as I said, it is a "World War III" against a common to all the Humanity "enemy"! And that's why most of the youth is trained to be much more smarter than their predecesssers... |
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Metalwing,
Now you really have me depressed... I am a sea food enthusiast and a hardcore sushi addict. The schools of fish disappearing? Tell me it ain't so... I like to see a cage match between Al Gore and Newt Gingrich where Al kicks the living shiyaaaat out of Newt. |
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METALWING:
You might've noticed that I pasted my comments right into your response to my message, "Apparently, you're right", (marked with "***") -- to save some time... |
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METALWING: You might've noticed that I pasted my comments right into your response to my message, "Apparently, you're right", (marked with "***") -- to save some time... Even though you handled it with caution, apparently Metalwing has left the building. I hope he gets hassled less in the recipe threads! |
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Actually I had to go make my Coconut Pecan Walnut bread. I did not notice any "hassle". LOL Was I hassled and didn't know it?
Some of the discussions are about what is best, or real. Are aliens mostly republican or democrat, for example. This discussion was/is about evolution and religion. I have just been trying to point out how mankind is actually evolving, and it's implications. If you take a look at what we are doing independent of climate change and religion, we are similar to a study which was done on rats. A bunch of rats were put in a nice big rat condo with unlimited food. At first the rats were happy as a rat can be. But space was limited and the rats could not help but breed. Soon, there were way too many rats but unlimited food meant more breeding. The rats started becoming violent, gay, and depressed. Eventually they just started killing each other. My point is that to consider the implications of evolution and religion, you really need to go far past the lame debate about "did God evolve man from monkeys" or whatever and think about where mankind is in relation to the rest of the species on this planet. The fact we are killing species practically every second does not sound like something any god would want. Evolution has consisted of a species improving some aspect of it's genetic makeup in a way that helps it survive. In man's case, the primary change (lets not call it an improvement at this point) was the brain's ability to process information in a way that allowed him to control his environment. If you were smart enough to kill food, you ate. Your family ate. You bred children who could kill food. Our eyes are in front of our face like any other predator. At some point we became so good at killing that no other creature on this world could stand against us so we ate and multiplied. We killed off all the other human species leaving only homo sapiens. Peaceful co existence was not in our genetic makeup. Our only real enemies became each other and germs. Famine and plague held us in check but the process of breeding the best and brightest stopped. The best and brightest were killed at war and the humans, who now no longer had to outsmart the tiger to stay alive, could farm, herd cattle, or fish to raise a family. This is science. What exactly does religion have to do with where we are going? The Taliban taking over Pakistan which is armed to the teeth with nukes? This is philosophy. We are in the "science and Philosophy" section. You may not actually notice but I am pretty much leaving my opinions out of this discussion and bringing up historical events. Where is the morality of helping sick people with AIDS spread the disease? Does God want someone to bring medicine to man A so he can kill woman B, C, D, E, and F? Is this Gloom and Doom to ponder the point? Evolution is about the best breeding and the least fit dieing. Where does religion fit into these areas? How many people on this planet think God wants them to kill all the people who are on this website? (and everyone else in the US for that matter) I am looking for discussion, not an argument. Arguments are for how to make the best BBQ. The state of our world is something we need to discuss. How religion plays a part on the state of our world is a very big part of the discussion. |
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Metalwing, Now you really have me depressed... I am a sea food enthusiast and a hardcore sushi addict. The schools of fish disappearing? Tell me it ain't so... I like to see a cage match between Al Gore and Newt Gingrich where Al kicks the living shiyaaaat out of Newt. National Geographic News May 15, 2003 Only 10 percent of all large fish—both open ocean species including tuna, swordfish, marlin and the large groundfish such as cod, halibut, skates and flounder—are left in the sea, according to research published in today's issue of the scientific journal Nature. "From giant blue marlin to mighty bluefin tuna, and from tropical groupers to Antarctic cod, industrial fishing has scoured the global ocean. There is no blue frontier left," said lead author Ransom Myers, a fisheries biologist based at Dalhousie University in Canada. "Since 1950, with the onset of industrialized fisheries, we have rapidly reduced the resource base to less than 10 percent—not just in some areas, not just for some stocks, but for entire communities of these large fish species from the tropics to the poles." "The impact we have had on ocean ecosystems has been vastly underestimated," said co-author Boris Worm of Dalhousie University and the University of Kiel in Germany. "These are the megafauna, the big predators of the sea, and the species we most value. Their depletion not only threatens the future of these fish and the fishers that depend on them, it could also bring about a complete re-organization of ocean ecosystems, with unknown global consequences." Please note that the above quote was 2003 and things have gotten worse. Evolution in the making. |
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HEY MEHAN, YOUR JUST TOO MUCH! ! ! lol
BTW, you better watch it -- METALWING can crash you with one finger! (I'm referring to his "intellectual fingers"***) |
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Evolution is about the best breeding and the least fit dieing. Where does religion fit into these areas? How many people on this planet think God wants them to kill all the people who are on this website? (and everyone else in the US for that matter) I am looking for discussion, not an argument. Arguments are for how to make the best BBQ. The state of our world is something we need to discuss. How religion plays a part on the state of our world is a very big part of the discussion. Sorry, I didn't realize I was arguing, assuming you'r referring to me... Otherwise, there's no need to pay any attention! Anyhoo, I deliberately quoted you, because you pin pointed the key to Evolution: SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST! Homo Sapiens -- the only species equiped with brain power -- appear to be the most addaptable. Therefore they've survived (and some of them have even prospered!) But, ever since "God" sepatated them into different communities, their development became sharply differentiated: those who still rely on deity for their well being (X), have fell way behind in their development, while the rest of the Humanity (Y) -- which has realized religion as an atavism from the encient times -- has moved forward in their development. The hate of X towards the unattainable progress is powered by pure envy (and by inability of maintaining the religious power)! Eventually, Humanity is bound to resort to the behavior of rats, i.e. smart rats -- there won't be any random killing, but selective one would appear to be necessary -- preserving limited resources for the fittest! Look at China: families are limited to only one offspring! Pretty soon the same rule will apply to the rest of the world... As far as Taliban is concerned, I hope they won't ever attain the transcontinental weapons deleivey system before they're anihilated... (most probably, they will parish in some "unexpected" local conflict?) Yeah, we sure live in turbulent times! Makes one wonder how will we get out of this predicament... May be I'm too optimistic, but I beleive we will, somehow... P.S. PESSIMIST: Oh, the state of affairs is so bad, and getting worst... OPTIMIST: Everything's gonna be OK -- it cannot get any worst!!! |
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