I could be wrong here but...

If a non-citizen organized a mass rally in most countries in the world
it would be taken as an invasion of sorts and would be dealt with by the
proper force.

Perhaps we should step back and think for a minute.

Is there anyone out there that has read parts of the so called treaty of
st. guadalupe.

It lays out exactally how the people from mexico can take back under
mexican control the states of California, new mexico, and texas.

What they are doing is part of a plan.

"So
someone burns a flag or wipes their ass with it.Thats their right .so
buck up. "

I hate to agree with cutedevile about this because I feel falg brning
and desecratign should still be a federal crime like it used to be
(thanks so much pres. Clinton!!!), however President Clinton
did make it legal to jst abhuse the flag with no repercussions
whatsever. So yes it is her right to be able to wipe the **** off her
ass with our flag if she wants to

that wasnt my point ..i hate to see it too but if you stop people from
exercising their rights just because you dont like what they did then
what the f@#$k is America all about??As a naturilized citizen I am more
than proud to be an american.

I know a man down the street that flys the American Flag.

reckon if you try to burn his flag you might survive. More than likly
you will get buried where you stand.

Heck I fly the flag outside my house. It has been there since long
before 9/11.

Reckon you can come try to burn it.

Better have some life insurance so's yr family can have a better life
when your gone.

and thats your right AB..Myself I dont burn flags so I think I'm safe.

but what would happen if YOU were to burn your OWN flag? your own
property. yours. shouldn't you be able to dispose of your stuff as you
see fit, as long as you aren't littering or damaging the environment?

Apparently not or you will be shot by an overzealous patriot.

I will only dispose of my flag when it is tattered.

And then I will do it with some reverence as is required.

They claim to want things a citizen wants. Let them act like it.

I have defended their right to be here as I do not beleive this nation
should ever limit immigration. But to those that wish to piss on my
country... Piss your way back over the border and find a diferent
place. You don't belong here.

i think that your just dancing around the topic, using semantics.
the point that theyre trying to make is burning it in like a
demonstration.
dont care what you do with your stuff, never have never will, just
please dont try to force your ideology down my damn throat



doc

Well, as soon as I stop chokin from the idealogy you have been trying to
shove down my throat, I will try to remember that!!

the school personel at the highschool should have pulled the mexican
flag off the pole and set it on fire, then piss on it.

Ok, now that I know how you all REALLY feel>>>

Before I say anything else, I have to address Bl8ant and all of you who
think unkindly toward her,

I was born third generation to USA. Before I was 18 my only
experience out of country was reading an old set of Encyclopedia's, it
was second hand, all my parents could afford, but I read and erroneously
believed what I read. All was right in the world. I have lived outside
this country, it opens your eyes like you could not believe. You see if
anyone in this world is complacent, it is those who are born in the USA
and never get to "live", not vist but live, in any other country.

The heros in my life were those, like Bl8ant, who were able to break
through, to find a way to be the poeple they are today. How they ever
find a way, have the courage and the fortitude, and generousity of heart
to do what they do, is beyond me. I don't know why, but I never found
the opeing that would take me to such a destiny until about 5 years ago.

Back to the flag - This country is my home. The flag of this
country, like any other countries flag, deserves respect. Respect, if
for no other reason but, because it is the banner under which, you will
find, many good poeple, people who do good works under that piece of
cloth, that banner to which we proclaim allegiance.

I posted this topic in consideration of a recent link regarding our
immigration laws. I thought it would be a good thing to see, as it
would get those good poeple of this nation thinking about what respect
means. Respect is mutual, repect is taught, and to spite what any of us
might want or think, the immigration policy will allow immigrants access
to and the chance to join in an allegiance with this country. It will
be OUR JOBS to teach the respect that others will need to learn. First
we must show it. The alarming thing is that so many here totally missed
that point.

Bl8ant, there are many in this country who do what you are doing,
many who give as much as you give and they do it out of concern, love
and compassion. And they respect this flag, and any flag that might
harbor you when you are not at home. And there are many others, like
myself, who see the faults of this country, of the politics, and though
I have no abilities worthy enough to offer, as you do, or circumstances
that would allow it, I offer my voice in this country to those causes
that I feel will be of benefit to the most poeple. I fight from the
ranks to get funds appropriated, to get laws changed, to raise Human
Rights awareness of the whole world.

I can do this because my home is under that flag. The flag that offers
me and others like me, the opportunity, the freedom to make changes in a
powerful government that would, could offer so much more to the world.

Bl8ant, I respect your heart, I respect your intelligence, and I'm sad
that the terrible things that you have witnessed, been up against, have
blinded you to the good people of this country, who love our striped and
star spangled toilet paper, for offering us hope that it's true
intentions can still be fulfilled.

Being too hasty, jumping to conclusions, never considering the other
side of a coin before acting can, and will be the undoing of us all. We
are a melting pot, that's part of what this country has promised to
offer the world. Yes, be proud of that flag, but understand why, extend
that understanding to those who do not know and let's make one hell of a
great pot of soup.

what a beautiful post! thank you for the time and thoughtfullness.

it's ok.. i am not offended by anyone here, on the contrary, i love the
way the discourse takes shape and fires and is raw and human and with
conscious deliberation to remain civil and cool.

i thought about this .... even away from the computer.

i came to see that we all just come from different perspectives but they
certainly all have merit just as every piece of the raspberry strudel
has it's unique value..lol (that was for kimi) hahhahaaaa

flags are irrelevant for me....i am treating a human being and our
whole objective is nondiscriminatory of race religion or politics....
and my take is what attrocities i have witnessed under the names and
oath to these flags....even my own. so my point is real for me and
correct and has nothing to do with what the symbols stand
for....symbols , words , concepts belief systems and our attachment to
them have blinded us ...everyone of us and we must remove the constructs
of an outdated software from our personal hardrives.... in other words
we have been conditioned and programmed and
.those initial ideals and concepts have become only that and have no
more strong and ethical reality in american politics...

the flag does not represent the reality ..only a lost time from a past
that is also ridden with corruption. and the boys that have been
brainwashed ...are that. and i feel seriously that war crimes are being
committed already at the enlistment desk.....with your own children as
victims....there was no reason for this war to happen this way.... it
is a botched and scandalous illegal act of madness,

and life to your gov.

is just collateral damage

If you come to america do it legally. Email your congressman. I have
gotten several personal messages from mine about the illegal aliens and
the billions they rape from our economy. I have no pity for illegal
aliens.

good morning bl8ant (sorry bout spelling I ma dead tired and cant goto
sleep for several hours yet
I have one question for you. You say "this war" is illegal. Please
provide factual (not personal belief) information asto why you think
itis illegal? I ave another thread going to this very specific question
in current events, if you wish to look it up to answ3er me.
But I would love to hear what you feel isproof of an illgal war; oh and
I suggest you do go look at the other thread first, cause I have shot
down or others have shot down, all the so-called proof that has been
brought forth so far.

Daniel,



why would i want to do that? i don't feel compelled to persuade you or
convince you, it's fine if you don't agree!

Good God!! I could provide proof by the truckload..And have..

Only to have it dismissed as 'propaganda'..

You don't want proof! You want to believe that the disgraceful acts
committed by your government were justified..And, you will, despite all
the proof that intelligent posters have laid down here!!

Bl8ant,
Nice reply. You have made an argument for some very good points.
I'm an original Star Trek, Trekie. Why? "The Federation". Even as a
teenager, I understood enough to know how much better a world coalition
would be than these segrated, narrow minded, limiting governing bodies
called Countries/Nations.

You stated:
"""symbols , words ,concepts belief systems and our attachment to them
have blinded us ...everyone of us and we must remove the constructs of
an outdated software from our personal hardrives.... in other words we
have been conditioned and programmed and those initial ideals and
concepts have become only that and have no more strong and ethical
reality in american politics..."""

You and others like you are those that I consider the real pioneers of
this federation. Not a coalition, not a united league of nations, not a
united anything. Just people who see and reach and live beyond the
confines of any mystical or imagined lines of a country's boarders. Just
people living outside the reach of a countries symbolic idealistic
representations of values and morals. Just people, pioneers of a new
philosophy of people, who are just people.

If news were a worthy source of information, we wouldn't need some
attention grabbing documentary that follows someone, like you, around to
"see what life really is like, to see what you witness.

It's because of poeple like you that people like me look for ways to
make, real, a world order, a world society. It will not happen
overnight, not even in my lifetime, I don't expect it for generations to
come. Yes, the software is old, archaic, and those that would be
programmers are ventureing, like you, in this field alone. There are
those, like you, who live the life of your philosophy, and there are
those who try to find ways to forward, to promote that same philosophy.
Sometimes it is only one person at a time, and only a few in a lifetime.
Sometimes it is a journey that leads us to explore other avenues.

My choice, in this venture was to change, from within, a political
system whose basic principals, I believe, once had the ability to be
world encompassing. Buried in my attempts to change, transorm, to
re-write what has been twisted, is the seed of a new philosophy, the one
"you" live by.

You also said:
"""and life to your gov.
is just collateral damage"""

This is not news to me,it is, in fact, a bitter reality I became aware
of when I was very young. This reality, however, can not and will not
persevere through re-programming, until the people are made to see the
self imposed inequity, they allow when they 'empower' others to make
their choices based on those twisted unsupported iealisms that have lost
thier way.

Fighting to bring some ineqities to right, in this country, allows me to
'show' people that we are the poeple who govern ourselves as a people,
not as a government. To blur the lines of country, of nations to see
all people as equal, as people.

This is how "I" personally view the beginning of a change in the
programming. One day to be one world community of people who justify
their laws on the consensus of people.

Even then, though, I would like to think that there may be someplace,
one place where all flags of every past nation will fly with dignity and
grace, in memory of all those who fought under those flags, whose lives
were lost, even before they died. To remind us where we had been, and
what we lost on the long journey to real freedom.

Flags are a thing that give creedance to lives lost, a loss that might
otherwise be unbearable. You see the bigger picture of righting the
wrongs, is also to understand, the journey of this human race includes
ALL THE PEOPLE, not just the ones alive today or at any given moment in
history.

Red>

Agreed...

ALL THE PEOPLE. Not just the ones who have gone before. Most
importantly the ones yet to come.

I for one would rather give them a world at peace and a civilization
advancing into a bright future than a world of burned cities and a
legacy of death.