To all of you freaking out and whining about "flag mistreatment":
Seriously, it's time to get over it.

First of all-symbols and protests, like words, only have the power you
give them. You are actually working against "anti-flag burning
behavior". Incredibly, you think that people burn flags and expect
NO-ONE TO COMMENT. Ummm, do you think maybe they did something so
obviously and classically shocking so that they can make a statement?
So, when you express such passionate expressions of distaste for flag
burning, you are actually giving people a reason to do it.

Secondly, my roommate's brother is in Iraq, right now, and the reason
he's there is because people's lack of tolerance. They can't tolerate
us, and we can't tolerate them, and "patriots" can't tolerate people who
express their ideas in a format you don't like. Great, we're on the path
to riots and destruction. Thanks.

Thirdly, if you don't like flag burning, then you better not own "flag
patterned" clothing, thongs, car flags, blankets, etc. Talk about
disrespect, you're not burning the flag, instead you use it as @ss
floss.

Fourth point, and this one's a biggie, the people who have burned flags
are generally making a statement. They aren't just burning a flag, they
are saying "I disagree with our government about x, and I'm mad enough
to burn this symbol to show it."
So they are voicing a disagreement with establishment, not being
unpatriotic. Actually, they being more patriotic because they are trying
(whether it's effective or not) to improve this country by making people
aware of issues that may be critical to our survival as a nation. They
are taking action; while the rest of us whine about what needs to be
changed, they are actively WORKING towards change.


So before you start to whine and gripe about "flag burners", do a little
self-evaluation. Make sure YOU aren't disrespecting the flag, preaching
intolerance, or giving power to an argument first. If a child
misbehaves, the behavior is effectively dealt with by ignoring it, and
rewarding the positive opposite of that behavior. Punishment breeds
rebellion, because intolerance breeds ignorance.

TOMOKUN-

perfectly said.

thank you,


doc

Thanks Doc!

tomokun great post.

Tomokun, did you find anything in this entire post besides people
whining about the flag being mistreated?

I absolutely, totally agree with number 4 of your post, I shouted right
along in the late 60's early 70's when those flags of protest were being
set aglow.

In your example (# 4), it shows that you and others are AWARE that this
specticle would have the power desired. That the nature of the act
itself was nearly incomprehensible.

Yet you contradict the this by saying "get over it, its just a piece of
cloth". How can it be both, a tool to wield for power and just a piece
of cloth.

Again, have you found nothing of worth in these posts?

Found the following in my email this morning, don't know if it's
relevant or not....just someone stating their feelings.

A funny parallel...
I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with
seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the
continuous flow of free and easily accessible food. But then the birds
started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and
next to the barbecue.
Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs,
the table...everywhere. Then some of the birds turned mean: They would
dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own
pocket. And others birds were boisterous and loud: They sat on the
feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and
demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.
After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. I took
down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned
up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the
patio. Soon, the back yard was like it used to be...quite, serene and
no one demanding their rights to a free meal.
Now let's see . . . our government gives out free food, subsidized
housing, free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here
to be a automatic citizen.
Then the illegals came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes
went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5
families: you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room
doctor: your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because
over half the class doesn't speak English.
Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear
my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old
Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights
and free liberties. Maybe it's time for the government to take down the
bird feeder

Redyklous: Howdy! Sure did find other views and opinions besides the
whining, but preaching to the choir is hardly productive, ne?
Besides, if there was NOTHING but whining, I would have abandoned the
posts long ago- I hate to just sit and spin my wheels.

Which is why I try to be fairly accurate when I post, so slight
correction- I never said it was just a piece of cloth. In fact, in a
previous post I said that it was a symbol, big difference. The flag is a
symbol, same as burning it is symbolic. Please, if I'm mistaken and I
DID use those words, correct me . I love to be shown when I'm
wrong so that I don't make the same mistakes.

OleJeb, or should I say Aesop , interesting point, however...

I don't know that taxes "suddenly" sky rocketed. In fact, I would look
more to welfare and government misspending that an influx of cheap
labor. And the last time I waited six hours in the emergency room there
was only one other patient in the lobby, and only two doctors on staff.
Hmmm, under staffing, that might be a reason for slow service in a
hospital .

I actually went to a school with a large hispanic population, the only
thing that happened was that my spanish got better, amazingly enough, I
did fantastic on my SAT's (not to mention my first girlfriend had the
sexiest accent).

While I agree that the government should "take down the bird feeder",
keep in mind that it is going to effect citizens as well, as it should,
but the effect is going to effect these Americans far more than folks
who manage to get by without ANY of the required identification that we
need to function in day to day life. Methinks they're gonna survive
better than the average American welfare family.

Tomokun that first post was the biggest bag of **** Ive ever heard. LMAO

First of all you probably wouldnt need to learn Spanish, or ever use it
if the country was now as it was when I was in my 20's, or 30's. Because
the Gov. collected the illegals up as quick as they came across.

Now you might say, the number coming across is a lot higher today. And
you would be right, but that was because every tom **** and Harry didnt
give them a place to live(not caring), nor did they recieve Jobs (it was
illegal ) And they did not blatantly walk around openly in the streets
(not worried).

And they damn sure didnt burn Old Glory on any day. They would have
gotten their asses beat, and feel lucky thats all they recieved. Of
course that was a different generation and a different America.

Welfare, hospital, health clinics, are over run with illegals today. Who
said that I said that. Today's money influenced society will sell out
their own mother for a dollar, and has no problem selling out their
country. Kids in schools are taught to accept anything, and believe it
after hearing it their whole life. They do not have respect for what
others have died for, and dont care if others burn a peice of colored
cloth. Hell they might even hold the match, and then go to the bar to
celebrate cinco-da- whatever the **** (not the 4 th of July)
Thats just a day to shoot off bottle rockets for a week, not just the 4
th.

Let them burn your flag, hell let them change the name of the country.
Its just a name, right, what the ****!!!

watch this quick clip

The clip plays best if you use Internet Explorer.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IOe5uYFcXzY&mode=related&search=

You know what, they need to start the Draft, and make these youngins
serve for awhile. Maybe if you had to sweat and bleed for this luxurious
life you have been luckily born into. You would stand tall and be proud
of Old Glory. Instead of so easily, and willing allow somebody to burn
her.

I draft for what? so we can go kill the innocent people in Iran like we
did in Iraq and Afganastan, over lies and for Empire.


I think not.


this government is run by criminals who desirve no respect or honor, if
are founding fathers were alive today they would be getting lots an lots
of ropes.

I will not be pissed, we should be socially tolerant, and accept that we
are American by luck of birth.

Others were not as lucky as I was. Their parents life, their countries
government was not is not as lucky as mine. Luck had nothing to do with
it, if you dont believe me go to Arlington, or any of the Hundreds of
other Veteran cemeteries across America, kneel your ass down by one of
the headstones and tell them it was luck.

If these illegal immigrants are so proud, such good hard working
citizens let them go home and fight to make it better. If their
Government is so repressive, let them stand up and fight to make it
better And if they need help I am sure a good red blooded American will
go down there and die to help them. Just go to Normandy Kneel down
beside one of the 400,000 head stones there and ask one of them. My ass,
You have nothing to say to me Tom, because its all bull****.

Peace time draft Bear. Every year there are wild fire, Tornados,
Hurricanes and the like FEMA could use the manpower. Put them on the
border to build a fence of flesh and blood. Why does there have to be a
war to draft?

I watched your clip and it made me sick..

Bear are you a criminal?

This country is run by us. Wether you admit it or not.

WE are the PEOPLE.

Perhaps that is why you are having such a hard time with the war thing.

Sucks to be lookin at the possibility that we are part of the problem.

Seems to me the Liberal left has struck again, and people want to know
why California is going Bankrupt? Freeways closed so students can
demonstrate when they are supposed to be in school learning. Defacing
and destroying government property, yes a school is considered
government property in the state of California. It is obvious the police
stood by and watched as the students pulled thier stunt with the Flags.

Some of you wonder why I fight against things the way I do? These
so-called protestors did NOT have a permit to march or to assemble for a
peaceful protest. Not a single police officer did a thing, does any of
you know why?

Its time you look at the rights of others that are destroyed when you
change the laws of the land to suit the minorities. Once again the
police force was not able to do it's job because of past experiences
with someone being "Burned at the stake" so to speak. We all know if the
police had tried to stop this demonstration it would have ended up
bloody, and those in charge would have been blamed for it and lost thier
job. Whats wrong with this scenario? Mindless Children controlling the
streets? Mindless children controlling the Police? What will they
control next?

Seems to me someones rights are more important than the laws that were
created to protect us all, not just a chosen few. If you ask me this
happened as a result of not being able to Legally discipline Minors
because they are not considered responsible. What ever happened to
discipline? Does anyone see a pattern here? Give someone an inch and
they will take a mile rings a bell.

If you think this couldn't happen in your schools you have another thing
coming, it will, its only a matter of time before it does. The rights of
the few are more important than the many, laws are being passed daily to
protect these rights and several of the so-called innocent laws are the
ones that started it.

I am curious why I have to push one to get my bank statement in english?

G

I no police officers did a think why did so many officer get suspended
for excessive force?

Or did I read a diferent news story?

Wow, I never knew it was a bad thing to learn extra languages, but I
guess some celebrate ignorance *shrugs*. Since you brought it up in the
first line, let me reiterate one of my last lines: It's your right to
speak whatever language you want, but it WILL HURT YOU if you don't
speak our national language. However, being bilingual just doesn't seem
like a bad thing to me.

Also, just a small point, but crime has been going down, so I think its
a good thing that the country is different from when your 20's and
thirties. Evidently, you get your information from Fox news, as opposed
to journalistic sources, because that lack of fear you are talking about
is not just because charity and good will are up, but because racism is
down. Also, it's not that they didn't get jobs, it's that it didn't make
news when they did. -besides, the Cold War made us focus more on
socialists than it did on unfortunates.

I'm not going to even bother addressing "burning old glory" again, I
think I explained the idea and power of symbols quite well, it's
fruitless to talk to people about their irrational beliefs, just keep
this in mind- Learning without is labor lost, thought without learning
is perilous.

As for the name, it's Tomo, not Tom if-you-please; it gets confusing
because I think you are talking to some guy named Tom. (I don't mean
that with attitude, but I was trying to make sure you were still talking
to me.)However, you are wrong, I have quite a bit to say to you, but
only just now realized it.

You see, it is YOU who do not understand why all those good men died.
They fought for our country to protect our rights-the rights that some
do not have any value for, instead worrying about the laws. BTW, laws
are in place to protect our rights, so yeah, that's why they are
important. But back to the fallen men and women who have died, who you
have decided to use as an emotional argument, I'm sure they don't
appreciate you putting words in their mouth. While you may have been a
soldier, you were not every soldier. My father however, was definitely a
vet, same as the other vets the he and I play poker with when I go visit
them. You know what they have to say about youngsters like yourself?
They point out how the loss of personal responsibility is draining the
morality from this country, making it fall like a flan in a cupboard.

I agree that illegal immigrants should not be all over the place, but
them taking advantage of the system means we need to make the system
better. I'm the first person to say that people need to earn their
rights to appreciate them, which is why I suggested using illegal
immigrants in our military to make them legal. Yes there is already a
program, but deportation is obviously ineffective; as ineffective as
complaining about immigrants without offering a solution that doesn't
trample on their human rights. And human rights are important, that's
what HALF of the constitution (at least) is about. BTW, while "Old
Glory" is symbolic of the values of our nation, the Constitution IS the
values of our nation- protecting the symbol without protecting the
meaning is...well moronic.

Before you start talking about the "good old days" try to explain to me
how applying human rights to only some humans is in alignment with the
values of our country. While we should have a strict policy of
non-involvement (something we fail to have), that doesn't mean that we
ignore suffering. If people want to be illegal in our country, let's
give them a reason to consider not coming besides sending them back
home, but then let's also apply the same standards to the naturalized
dead-weight that makes up a disgusting chunk of the population.

And we ARE lucky. Last I checked, you aren't buried in Arlington.
Neither am I. However, neither are illegal mexicans (maybe). This
country is great because of their efforts, but we were born here as an
accident of birth, not because we fought our way through the borders.

I think it's funny that native non "native" americans think that
immigrants don't appreciate this country, when they previously didn't
have these rights and NOW get to express them. I'm curious what you
think about a Klan members rights are? I mean, people complain about
flag burners...are Klan members rights to lynching protected? What about
marching? How much value do these rights hold?

The bottom line is that I hear a lot of complaining about people
expressing their rights, and not enough complaining about how stopping
these expressions destroys those rights. We live in a country that
values equality, so unfortunately we have to tolerate ideas that aren't
own, but fortunately that tolerates our ability to have ideas that are
completely our own.

And as for your socialist agenda Gryphon- Back to Russia!

You talk a lot of bull**** Ill give you that tonto...LOL
At least Im eligible to be buried in Arlington you aren't.
I have learned what I said from living not just Text books. Although my
grade pt avg is 3.9 I do not rely solely on that, I also have 46 yrs of
life experience to go along with it.
Yes the country and the people have changed and my experience tells me
not for the better. I can tell you are tongue tied and the lil
experience you possess has run out because you are beginning to bring up
the race card. Since you don't know anything about me that's a sure sign
that you have run out of the lil intelligence you thought you had. Now
you have no argument. I think your heritage is illegal and the name
Tomokunt is a mockery in reference to Uncle Tom!

My father fought in Korea, My grandfathers brother died in Normandy, Two
cousins died in Vietnam, I can trace similar proud Americans who died or
fought in every war since the French Indian Wars and the Independence of
Texas. Where can you trace yours Bay of the Pigs and a rubber raft?

Hey fanta, gotta be careful man, although I am just as vehement about
thisissue as you are, dont go attacking people on a persoanl level. I
doubt Tom would say anything, but others might.

Now for Tom I have a few things to say here. First of all to
quote you...

"So they are voicing a disagreement with establishment" You said this
in regards to the burning of old glory, the United States National Flag.
I have but one question. How does the burning of the vlag produce the
tonal qualities needed to produce a recognizably HUMAN pattern of
speach? It doesnt. The act itself does not "SAY" anything. It just
infuruates people and builds up temper and the like.

Secondly, I agrtee with you about being bi-lingual, even tri-lingual.
It is a good thing to be so. However, this is the United States. Our
national language is not spanish, it is not french, German, Irish,
japanese etc. It is North American English (vs. British English which
IS subtly different). A such, there shuld be no need for an option of
pressing one for english on ANY public service or amenity. As an
American, every single person here shuld speak english fluently, no
matter what their culture or background is.

I forget what lese you have said, but I will go back over it later and
respond to ti when I have more time. Rightnow I have to gt back to
mopping the floors, and cleaning the cat box (which tells you where MY
priorities lay in regards to this topic right now),

Sorry totomo, I was thinking tom was short for tomoto, and could not
rememebr your full name at the time.