I notice alot of people come under attack for being "Christian". People like to point fingers at our short comings.
Lets ponder this.... If I believe in God and my proof is only in my faith, then i spend my life based on the teachings of Jesus and try to be a better man. When i die if there is no God, then I've spent my life seeking peace and happiness through helping other people and then if I'm wrong there's nothing. What have i lost? But if you as someone who doesn't believe in God spends their whole life doubting a divine creator, living for pleasing themselves and what they can get out of life. What if when you die there is a God ? Then what have you lost? I think I'd rather live by faith and be wrong, than live by doubt and be wrong. So my question is what do you think? And what's the point of your life?

The problem is that fingers point in all directions. Pagans get treated just as badly.

It really does not matter what anyone believes as long as they live good lives and remain true to themselves!


The problem is people make it matter.

I grew up christian but I see two flavors of it. Those that follow the teachings and those that worship the man. All religion requires faith to some degree.

Christianity has been shoved down our throats for years and unfortunately Christianity has not evolved very much and much like radical Islam requires blind obedience and blind faith.

It's all a big mess. I think ultimately you just have to go with what makes your boat float. I despise Scientology for a number of reasons besides it is ignorant and a contrived religion made up by a science fiction writer who also was a notorious pedophile but that is besides the point.

Religion has had a place helping maintain order but now education and the lack there of is really jacking things around because no one can agree on anything including agreeing to disagree...

Goodness based on what?

The problem is not just in christianity. The problem lies in people's beliefs that their religion is the only right one. When you talk about spreading the word of Jesus, do you tell people that he is the ONLY way to salvation? He is the ONLY way? That there's only one true God and Jesus is the ONLY way to him? That's where I have my problem.
I don't have a problem with Christians. I don't have a problem with anyone of any faith as long as they aren't out hurting other people. If they're leading a decent life, more power to them. I do however have a problem with people telling me I'm damned to eternal hell if I don't believe the same way you do.
I just want to be accepted without being considered "evil".

Christians have spent eons persecuting people of other faiths. I'm sorry but I don't feel to awful when we stand up for ourselves against the "moral majority".
I've been told by Christians that I'm going straight to hell. Not because I commited some horrible crime. Not because I lead this horrible, terrible, life. But because I'm not of the same beliefs that they are. Who are you tell me I'm damned?

The Christians aren't the ones being attacked here. We all get attacked. We just stand up for ourselves and dispute and debate the words put forth in these threads.

How would you feel if the rolls were reversed? And I 'attacked you' because you're not a Christian?

If being a Christian is really who you are and what makes you happy, more power to you. Just remember that there's other people out here with other beliefs just as strong as yours.
Acceptance goes both ways...

Ya i've never been one for telling people they are going to hell if they dont believe. and the term christian has seem to have lost its meaning. I believe in God based on what my belief has manifested in my life as a result of following the teachings. Anyone can misrepresent any religion and personally im not religious. It seems people get defensive automatically when it come to talking about Jesus, and wanna point out all the wrong things "Christians" have done. When i talk about God i tell about the change in my own life as a result. Heck people read dietary books , lose weight and do the same thing. Or any self help book. People can be fanatical about anything, that is why i proceed with caution and discernment when sharing my faith. And it isn't something i just go around yelling on the street corner either, to me it's more personal.
p.s this isn't an attack on non christians. to each their own i was just looking for some input from non believers on what their take on lifes meaning is. If you don't believe in afterlife then what do you hope for in this life?

You think people get defensive when you talk about Jesus??
Try talking about being a Pagan. Or a Wiccan. Remember, we got hung for such things. At least people don't look at you like you're evil or you need "help" because there must be something wrong with you.

thats kinda my point we all get defensive when others talk about their faith. I think it's because we believe we're right and they're wrong ( to a point) that"s why people seem to get defensive (and i mean "WE" in general in any case disputed)

I am all for believing. If you really know what you are following and know it for yourself and not just listening to others.

Eternal life is something to be searched for. Not just believe. That is a lie..Blessings...Miles

well said miles, the search is never ending in this life. Perhaps i used the term believe too loosely , but i think i stated it correctly when i was pertaining to myself (at least thats what i was trying to do)

Of course "We" get defensive. Because no matter what your faith is, there's someone right there to tell you how wrong you are.
I personally do not believe in the bible. I don't mind debating with people on their beliefs and mine. No one has to agree with me. I don't have to agree with others. But I like a good debate. I like people to be able to at the very least back up why they believe the way they do. So many people go to church because they should. They really don't know why. It's just what they do on Sunday mornings. They don't question their faith. They just have blind faith. They're happy with that. It was how they were raised. They were told the bible was true. It's the word of God. So they believe it, without question.
If that works for them, fine. If it helps them live their own life better. Good. But I just ask you don't go around telling me I'm wrong unless you can back it up.

Jill i understand where your commin from and alot of what you said i think is true. It saddens me to see people attend church because they think they're supposed to. Lets assume that you are wiccan just for the sake of the point im gonna make. So you are a true and devout wiccan and you love what it represents. wouldn't you be a lil upset if all the sudden people started being wiccan because it is the latest thing? Well thats where i say i understand on what you said about the drones attending church every week. be it christian,catholic,mormon,islamic whatever. I think people in general don't even know what the hell they're doin. So i hope this thread will stir up some people to re examine what they believe is their point in life, or the afterlife if thats what their doctrine says.

No. I wouldn't be upset. There's always fads and things people go thru. If they wanna try it, let um try. When I come across them I just pat them on the back and say "keep trying" and remind them that just because they work at Hot Topic, does not mean they're Wiccan.
It is sad when I do go with my mom to church. It's sad for me to see those people that go to church only because they should. But it's still their choice.
I chose to question. I chose to do something different. I chose to really follow my spirit and let it lead me in a better direction for myself.

What's funny is there are a lot of people believe in the Yes/ Yes.No / No.Yes / No ... theory for global warming. BUT they won't follow the same for God. They say, "Well if global warming is a myth then why not just do something about it anyway. That way if it IS true then we still have a chance." Well guess what... WHY not do that for a God also? It shows how closed minded they are.

Science also teaches us that Energy never dissipates, it's only transferred. So that mean all the energy in the body must go somewhere upon death. And since there is NO energy or LIFE in the body upon death. It must have transferred to another state. But ask them if they believe in a soul and they say no. Amazing how the scientific community teaches one thing but will not apply the same theories to another. You watch a person die and give his or her last breath. WHERE does that energy go? I think science needs to answer that.. LOL, they can't!!!! So what science can not explain must mean that it isn't true. (In their eyes)

The major reason for people who make fun of a Religion, Christianity, etc... is this. They wish to expel their beliefs that it is ALRIGHT to commit tragic practices upon the human race. Without a religion they are only governed by MAN. So if man says it is OK to experiment on HUMAN LIFE, (Nazi Germany), then it is OK. If man wishes to experiment on animal life, (Kill dogs, cats, rats, mice, monkeys) for human preservation then it is OK! BUT another thing. Science states that man and ape have XXXX amount of common genes. BUT they still experiment on such animals.

ALL this information leads to is this. They wish to avoid paying a price. They wish not to believe in eternal damnation. That once they die their sins upon this world will be meaningless.

Look at the scientific community. They have taught many false "scientific" theories as factual. I remember as a child being taught that piltdownman was factual. That T-Rex was a veggie eater, (His front claws and arms where to short to be a carnivore.), Pluto was a PLANET for CRIPE SAKES!! Also remember that the scientific community would dismiss ancient uses of medicines for cures. Lost arts... ONLY to find out that quite a lot of what was said is true. Ex: "An apple a day keeps the doctor away." I'm not saying everything was true BTW.

Remember. The Bible is a HISTORY book not a science book.

What I say to you is this. Don't worry about those that do not believe in God. We that DO believe in God have more pleasure and peace of mind as long as we keep true to the word. We understand that when we pass from this life that our energy shall be under the care of God.

Everyone has a different point to their life. Even Judas who betrayed Jesus had a point to his life. We are here to do what Jesus said AND did. Love, and to be good to those around us.

And what makes you think that people who don't believe in God only live to please themselves?
Isn't that an insult?
Maybe next time you should ponder how you phrase your questions.
I'm sick and tired of Christians assuming that people who don't believe as they do can not be as good as they are.

That's a crock

On the contrary, I think most people who are Christian do not live their life "seeking peace and happiness through helping other people." I think most Christians spend life being told what to believe when it comes to their faith. This can restrict one's thinking (though, of course, many people are brilliant and have faith at the same time). What's more, being religious is a serious time sink. ;-)

On the other hand, being a thoughtful agnostic/atheist exercises the brain quite a bit and lends itself to introspective thought, which I believe is quite beneficial.

Of course, if you die and there is a God and he sends you to hell for not believing...well, then you go to hell and that sucks. However, if I DID believe and I found out that God didn't let in *good and moral* non-believers, I'd say, "F*ck you God. I'd rather spend eternity in hell without you and your close-minded lackies."

So, for me, if God turns out to be so selective, it doesn't matter 'cause believe or disbelieve, I'm going to hell. On the other hand, if God is the beneficent and merciful God I'd support, then whether I believe in him or not doesn't matter.

After all, if God is the cool dude everyone says he is, he would understand my reason for disbelief and wouldn't take it as an insult. What's more, he'd probably be happy that I chose a path of inquiry and self-inspection.

So, I pose the question to you: If everyone got into heaven regardless of their beliefs, would you be angry? ^_^

Eternal life is a gift. The rain comes on the Just the same as the unjust.

Yahweh is fair. Most all chr-stian religions preach an eternal hell.

Meaning we do not die period. Yet Yahshua said the oppisite.

Matt 10:27-28

27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

Kill the soul. Hell is an Old English word. It was where they grew thier Potatoes.. The Grave.

Not Eternal Damnation.


Works it is taught can not get you into Paradice.

Is this true? What did James have to say?

James 2:17-26

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one Elohim; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed Elohim, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of Yahweh.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV


James is not a book preached out of much.

It fly's in the face of Just Believe.

rahab was a Harlot. Yet became the Great Grandmother of the Messiah.

How? She did what she knew she had to do.

Abraham is spoken of also.

These do not fit well with the Religious community.

They prefer to overlook them. They prefer thier own words over the Words of the Spirit.

When you see the unbeliever questioning you.

Look to the Pharasees and see why the Messiah Questioned them?

They killed him for questioning thier Authority and this has happened for sure since the Cannon of the Bible was made a Commandment by Emporer Constantine.

In this day and age it would do the believer good to not through off what the unbeliever says because he may have more true faith than you.

What do you think Israel thought when Yahshua said this?

Matt 8:5-13

5 And when Yahshua was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,

6 And saying, Master, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

7 And Yahshua saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

8 The centurion answered and said, Master, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

10 When Yahshua heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

13 And Yahshua said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
KJV

What? A Roman Pagan Soldier is more Justified than all of Israel?

Do not think that someone who see Hypocracy may not get the same Honor as This Soldier.


Because Yahweh is fair and Just and Holy.

John seen Yahshua at the Great White Throne Judgement. What was happening?

Rev 20:11-21:1

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before Yahshua; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Works. Unbelievers are judged by thier works. The believer who does not have works is dead already.

Yet what does the Ch-rches around the world teach?

They teach a lie. Search for the pearl of truth.

Openly believe a lie and repeat it to a child of Yahweh and we all came from Adam and Eve. You condemn yourself. You come under Judgement.

Yahweh does not condemn those to death who did not believe or who does not believe because of Hypocracy.

The Demons believe and Tremble. Listen to the unbeliever and learn why they do not believe because they have good reason not to.

The Roman Soldier had heard what Yahshua did and Knew it to be true. He did not question Yahshua he believed. Because he knew of the good works that he had done and was being talked about by the non believer as good and the Religious as bad. Because they did not like being questioned.

Listen you will learn more from the non Believer if you will search for answers more than any just about any minister on this earth because most will lie to you because they want a paycheck and a good life.

Listen and search and the pearl of life is promiced you will find.. Blessings of Shalom...Miles

Priceless. I Hot Topic...of course, it's too expensive for me to buy anything there...it's just fun on principle. O_o





I don't mean to be offensive, RenoirGarland, but I feel like your over-simplifying just a bit.

1) If we prevent Global Warming just in case it's true, we may save the planet. If we believe in God just because we are afraid Damnation may be real, it's doubtable that God would allow us into heaven anyway. Certainly, there are those who don't believe that, but if I were God and I was omniscient and I knew that people only said they loved me because they were afraid of the devil, those people wouldn't earn my respect...

Of course, if i were God, Hell would not exist.

2) Uhmm...when someone dies, there is still a ton of energy in that body. If you cut the arm of something that has been dead for 5 seconds, probably some blood will spurt out just like when that person was alive. What's more, the body does not immediately go to ABSOLUTE ZERO upon death. No, there *is* energy in the body, even if the temperature isn't 37 degrees Celsius (body temperature).

3)

I think that's just flat out wrong. Most of my friends have made of religion or Christianity at some point, even the friends who have a religion or believe in Christianity. I don't think any of them do so so that they can justify torture or experimentation on humans. I think you are simplifying the topic very much. The reason why people make fun of religion is varied and more complicated than you say.

4) Oh, and we also test drugs on humans. That is the final phase of drug testing, though. No scientist delights in using poor animals for testing things. However, if we did not do this, there would be no way to test medications and hypotheses thoroughly. All those medications that everyone takes have all been thoroughly tested, and without this testing, these medications could kill or maim people.

5) Also, I don't think most agnostics/atheists rejected their faith because they were afraid of taking responsibility for their sins. That's a complete non sequitur.

6) Scientific Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of situations.

Thus, a scientific theory has never and never will be a fact per say. A theory allows us to understand a phenomenon or predict what will happen. A theory may turn out to be wrong, and this is the power of science: Science dictates that we do not KNOW anything 100%, but we are more or less certain.

Piltdown Man was a hoax, but scientists thought it was true. Later, they found it was false so they threw it away.
T-Rexes, scientists later realized, perhaps use their mouths as their means to kill prey. So, scientists changed the books.
I forget why we don't think of Pluto as a planet anymore, but perhaps we found out new information about Pluto? Or perhaps our definition of a planet changed.
As for medicine, things are constantly changing because medicine is such a complicated subject. Doctors and scientists can't exactly just dissect everyone to figure out what is going on, can they? And even if they could dissect us and put us back together fine, the chemical processes of the body are too complex to understand just through dissection. I hardly would fault medical science for this but rather applaud their efforts and progress.

Let me pose to you a situation:
Suppose we were co-workers. I told you that the super market ran out of eggs yesterday. Let's say you believe me.
Later, you go to the super market to buy some milk and to your surprise, you see that there are eggs.

Well, do you keep believing that there are no eggs at the super market because that's what you believed before? No, of course not. You change your view because of what you see. Scientists, when they find new information, must also change their views.

Now, next time you see me at work, do you call me an idiot for saying there were no eggs at the market? No, because as far as I knew, there weren't; I don't have perfect knowledge of everything. In the same way, scientists don't have perfect knowledge of everything. They can be mistaken, or perhaps something has changed unexpectedly in the situation they're studying. Just as you wouldn't fault your co-worker for having outdated knowledge or for being mistaken, how can you fault science? Scientists don't claim to hold all the answers. They only say that they have an fair idea of how some things work, and they acknowledge that they might be wrong.

Perhaps, though, you had some rather dogmatic science teachers as a child. In case the point is not already clear, let me just say that Science and Dogma are pretty incompatible.

7) Now, you can believe what you want about the Bible. If you believe that the Bible is a history book, that's fine. However, you'll have trouble convincing other adults of this without showing them any sort of proof. Where is the proof that some omniscient being in the sky called God once blew up two towns called Sodom and Gomorrah? Where's the proof that He once flooded the world to destroy most of Humanity? And finally, where is the proof that the God of the Bible is a good and kind God at all? If the Bible is a book of history, then it's easy to show that God is Evil. Even without the Bible, to say Hell is a reality is enough to show that God is Evil and Cruel.

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