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| Topic: Perfect love........... | |
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Well for someone who detests the bible as much as you do. I ask you then why do you stay in the religious forums? Is it to belittle and bad mouth everyone like a bully? Is it to try and make Christians feel bad? Is it to feel superiority? Or is it something else? So you're suggesting that only Christianity qualifies as 'religion'? I've answered this question many times, but no one seems to get it. Christianity preaches bigotry against anyone who does not believe in the Bible. They do this by simply claiming that anyone who has not accepted the Bible as the 'word of God' is rejecting God, and must therefore be choosing to side 'against God'. In fact, this is what the Bible itself demands. It's all through the Bible. Someone recently posted this verse which came straight from the Bible: Psalms 14: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. So there you have it. If you believe in the Bible you must agree with this. Otherwise you disagree with the Bible! So to support the Bible you must necessarily support this kind of bigotry because this is the kind of bigotry that the Bible teaches. You can't say, "Oh well, I'm not like that". If you're not like that, and you think it's morally higher ground not to be like that, then you necessarily believe that you are morally superior to the biblical God! That's a fact. You either agree with the Bible or you don't. If you agree with it you may need to lower your morals somewhat. You ask me why I'm so vhemently against it? Because it teaches people hate and bigotry in the name of God. Now you may say, "Well that's not what Jesus supposedly taught". I'll be the first to agree with you that Jesus also denounced what the Bible had to say! He was crucified for blaspheme because he disagreed with what the scriptures had to say! I don't hate the Bible. That would be like hating Greek Mythology. I just try to point out how totally asburd it is. The Bible contains HATE. That's a fact. I'm not making this up. Male chauvinism, hatred against heathens, and even hatred toward same gender love, is all through the Bible. A God who hates love?  Sorry that you feel that my views are cynical. It's the Bible that teaches people to hate each other, not me. I speak out against the Bible because we have fought for the right to speak out against atrocities. The Biblical picture of God is an atrocity in my view. Why should I support it? Why should I sit back and be silent whilst other people proselytize it to innocent victims? It's a cancer to humanity and historically has been shown to be so. The Catholic Church itself is on record for having mass murdered people who disagree with its views. They even mass murdered other Christians for having differnt views (See the history of the Cathers) The Cathers weren't bad people! The Crusades was done in the name of this religion. Hypatia was murdered in the name of Christianity. For 300 years thousands of innocent midwives were tortured and made to confess to being witches and burned at the stake in the name of Jesus Christ. Many of those innocent midwives were themsleves Chistains! The Christians came to America and murdered the native indians here as "heathen savages". Cleary this religion didn't instill any decent morals into these people. As if that wasn't enough, they brought Africans over and enslaved them and made them pick cotten whilst they went into their little white churches and praised Jesus! What a bunch of hypocrites! Even the Bible condones slavery and gives instructions on how to care for slaves! Do you believe that the creator of this universe condones slavery? I don't, and therefore I denounce the mythology that claims the our creator would condone any such behavior. To believe in the Bible you necessarily must believe that God is truly a cruel heartless bigoty who is clearly a male chauvinist. For me this is a HUMANITARIAN issue. Look at what Christian organizations are trying to do today in the name of Jesus Christ,... They denounce same gender love and what to put it into law to harrass anyone who dares to love someone of the same gender. They want to teach their myth in public schools as though it is established science and has just as much merit as science (which is doesn't). Moreover, they won't even consider pantheism as a potential picture of God. They demand that God is the male chauvinistic bigoted God of the Bible. Why? Why do they insist that the Biblical picture of God is true when there are so many things against it? Not the least of which is that it's an ugly story. To believe in the Bible you must believe that YOU were the reason that Jesus had to be nailed to a pole. Anything less and you are rejecting the sacrifice! The Bible DEMANDS that you have failed your creator and caused him great harm. Why would you want to believe such a thing? Do you feel that you really were against God and tried your best to spit him? I've never felt that way in my entire life. Perhaps that's one reason why I find the story so utterly absurd. Also, what's wrong with the pantheistic picture of God? It's totally 100% unconditional love. All are children of God. All return to God. No one is guilty of making God have to sacrifice anything. Much less ALL being quilty like the Bible demands. Can't you see that it's just a brainwashing scheme that was created to make everyone feel that they had no choice but to join the CHURCH. Those days are over. The real creator of this universe is not the nasty judgmental bigot that the authors of the Bible have claimed. It was all a big lie. The eastern view of Pantheism is far more divine, and far more likely to be the true picture of spirit. In the meantime, people need to be educated why the biblical picture of God can't possibly be true. You ask why I speak out against it. What do you expect me to do? Wait until Christians are burning gays at the stake (or having them incarcerated legally and harrassed by the law for their natural love for each other?) I speak out against this kind of bigotry and hatred because I can. This is the RIGHT that our forefathers fought for. In fact, my own father served in WWII. I speak out against it in the hope that some people will hear my views and realize that I speak the TRUTH. I dream of the day when we can put this bigoted hateful religion behind us and move on with a truly loving and humane world. |
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Well for someone who detests the bible as much as you do. I ask you then why do you stay in the religious forums? Is it to belittle and bad mouth everyone like a bully? Is it to try and make Christians feel bad? Is it to feel superiority? Or is it something else? So you're suggesting that only Christianity qualifies as 'religion'? I've answered this question many times, but no one seems to get it. Christianity preaches bigotry against anyone who does not believe in the Bible. They do this by simply claiming that anyone who has not accepted the Bible as the 'word of God' is rejecting God, and must therefore be choosing to side 'against God'. In fact, this is what the Bible itself demands. It's all through the Bible. Someone recently posted this verse which came straight from the Bible: Psalms 14: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. So there you have it. If you believe in the Bible you must agree with this. Otherwise you disagree with the Bible! So to support the Bible you must necessarily support this kind of bigotry because this is the kind of bigotry that the Bible teaches. You can't say, "Oh well, I'm not like that". If you're not like that, and you think it's morally higher ground not to be like that, then you necessarily believe that you are morally superior to the biblical God! That's a fact. You either agree with the Bible or you don't. If you agree with it you may need to lower your morals somewhat. You ask me why I'm so vhemently against it? Because it teaches people hate and bigotry in the name of God. Now you may say, "Well that's not what Jesus supposedly taught". I'll be the first to agree with you that Jesus also denounced what the Bible had to say! He was crucified for blaspheme because he disagreed with what the scriptures had to say! I don't hate the Bible. That would be like hating Greek Mythology. I just try to point out how totally asburd it is. The Bible contains HATE. That's a fact. I'm not making this up. Male chauvinism, hatred against heathens, and even hatred toward same gender love, is all through the Bible. A God who hates love? Sorry that you feel that my views are cynical. It's the Bible that teaches people to hate each other, not me. I speak out against the Bible because we have fought for the right to speak out against atrocities. The Biblical picture of God is an atrocity in my view. Why should I support it? Why should I sit back and be silent whilst other people proselytize it to innocent victims? It's a cancer to humanity and historically has been shown to be so. The Catholic Church itself is on record for having mass murdered people who disagree with its views. They even mass murdered other Christians for having differnt views (See the history of the Cathers) The Cathers weren't bad people! The Crusades was done in the name of this religion. Hypatia was murdered in the name of Christianity. For 300 years thousands of innocent midwives were tortured and made to confess to being witches and burned at the stake in the name of Jesus Christ. Many of those innocent midwives were themsleves Chistains! The Christians came to America and murdered the native indians here as "heathen savages". Cleary this religion didn't instill any decent morals into these people. As if that wasn't enough, they brought Africans over and enslaved them and made them pick cotten whilst they went into their little white churches and praised Jesus! What a bunch of hypocrites! Even the Bible condones slavery and gives instructions on how to care for slaves! Do you believe that the creator of this universe condones slavery? I don't, and therefore I denounce the mythology that claims the our creator would condone any such behavior. To believe in the Bible you necessarily must believe that God is truly a cruel heartless bigoty who is clearly a male chauvinist. For me this is a HUMANITARIAN issue. Look at what Christian organizations are trying to do today in the name of Jesus Christ,... They denounce same gender love and what to put it into law to harrass anyone who dares to love someone of the same gender. They want to teach their myth in public schools as though it is established science and has just as much merit as science (which is doesn't). Moreover, they won't even consider pantheism as a potential picture of God. They demand that God is the male chauvinistic bigoted God of the Bible. Why? Why do they insist that the Biblical picture of God is true when there are so many things against it? Not the least of which is that it's an ugly story. To believe in the Bible you must believe that YOU were the reason that Jesus had to be nailed to a pole. Anything less and you are rejecting the sacrifice! The Bible DEMANDS that you have failed your creator and caused him great harm. Why would you want to believe such a thing? Do you feel that you really were against God and tried your best to spit him? I've never felt that way in my entire life. Perhaps that's one reason why I find the story so utterly absurd. Also, what's wrong with the pantheistic picture of God? It's totally 100% unconditional love. All are children of God. All return to God. No one is guilty of making God have to sacrifice anything. Much less ALL being quilty like the Bible demands. Can't you see that it's just a brainwashing scheme that was created to make everyone feel that they had no choice but to join the CHURCH. Those days are over. The real creator of this universe is not the nasty judgmental bigot that the authors of the Bible have claimed. It was all a big lie. The eastern view of Pantheism is far more divine, and far more likely to be the true picture of spirit. In the meantime, people need to be educated why the biblical picture of God can't possibly be true. You ask why I speak out against it. What do you expect me to do? Wait until Christians are burning gays at the stake (or having them incarcerated legally and harrassed by the law for their natural love for each other?) I speak out against this kind of bigotry and hatred because I can. This is the RIGHT that our forefathers fought for. In fact, my own father served in WWII. I speak out against it in the hope that some people will hear my views and realize that I speak the TRUTH. I dream of the day when we can put this bigoted hateful religion behind us and move on with a truly loving and humane world. Can't you see that it's just a brainwashing scheme that was created to make everyone feel that they had no choice but to join the CHURCH. I totally agree with you Abra on the Brainwashing..Blessings...Miles |
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Church=Bad
Unadulterated Spirituality=Good 
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Edited by
notquite00
on
Sun 02/08/09 07:09 PM
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I was at church last sunday and my pastor talked about PERFECT LOVE(OR PURE LOVE) he says after Adam and Eve who had the PERFECT LOVE chose to eat the apple they ended up with IMPERFECT LOVE...............he also said they are the only humans who have experienced that PERFECTION and that we will never experience that PERFECT LOVE that they did because in other words we have been doomed by GOD..............so that is why we have so many problems in our relationships because we have IMPERFECT LOVE.............. so my question is why are we still searching for LOVE when its IMPERFECT LOVE that we have inherited from ADAM AND EVE........... One answer is because Imperfect Love is closer to Perfect Love thans No Love! In other words, love gives us a glimpse of the Divine. Now, what Divine means...is a discussion that needs its own thread.... Another answer comes in the form of a question: "Why study or pursue anything in life when you know that every job, every line of work, and every academic field is Imperfect? How can we still enjoy so many Imperfect things? Perhaps, this is because *we* are also Imperfect, and realizing this subconsciously, we accept (at least some of us do) Imperfection in life as well. |
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Because Adam and Eve werent real* Thats my thought and I in no way expect anyone else to believe it. You may not believe in Adam and Eve but i hope you believe in a higher power............... Why do you hope this? |
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Did we even have "Higher Powers" before AA? Did they coin that phrase I wonder for the specific purpose of not scaring away secular alcoholics who need help?
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Well for someone who detests the bible as much as you do. I ask you then why do you stay in the religious forums? Is it to belittle and bad mouth everyone like a bully? Is it to try and make Christians feel bad? Is it to feel superiority? Or is it something else? So you're suggesting that only Christianity qualifies as 'religion'? I've answered this question many times, but no one seems to get it. Christianity preaches bigotry against anyone who does not believe in the Bible. They do this by simply claiming that anyone who has not accepted the Bible as the 'word of God' is rejecting God, and must therefore be choosing to side 'against God'. In fact, this is what the Bible itself demands. It's all through the Bible. Someone recently posted this verse which came straight from the Bible: Psalms 14: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. So there you have it. If you believe in the Bible you must agree with this. Otherwise you disagree with the Bible! So to support the Bible you must necessarily support this kind of bigotry because this is the kind of bigotry that the Bible teaches. You can't say, "Oh well, I'm not like that". If you're not like that, and you think it's morally higher ground not to be like that, then you necessarily believe that you are morally superior to the biblical God! That's a fact. You either agree with the Bible or you don't. If you agree with it you may need to lower your morals somewhat. You ask me why I'm so vhemently against it? Because it teaches people hate and bigotry in the name of God. Now you may say, "Well that's not what Jesus supposedly taught". I'll be the first to agree with you that Jesus also denounced what the Bible had to say! He was crucified for blaspheme because he disagreed with what the scriptures had to say! I don't hate the Bible. That would be like hating Greek Mythology. I just try to point out how totally asburd it is. The Bible contains HATE. That's a fact. I'm not making this up. Male chauvinism, hatred against heathens, and even hatred toward same gender love, is all through the Bible. A God who hates love? Sorry that you feel that my views are cynical. It's the Bible that teaches people to hate each other, not me. I speak out against the Bible because we have fought for the right to speak out against atrocities. The Biblical picture of God is an atrocity in my view. Why should I support it? Why should I sit back and be silent whilst other people proselytize it to innocent victims? It's a cancer to humanity and historically has been shown to be so. The Catholic Church itself is on record for having mass murdered people who disagree with its views. They even mass murdered other Christians for having differnt views (See the history of the Cathers) The Cathers weren't bad people! The Crusades was done in the name of this religion. Hypatia was murdered in the name of Christianity. For 300 years thousands of innocent midwives were tortured and made to confess to being witches and burned at the stake in the name of Jesus Christ. Many of those innocent midwives were themsleves Chistains! The Christians came to America and murdered the native indians here as "heathen savages". Cleary this religion didn't instill any decent morals into these people. As if that wasn't enough, they brought Africans over and enslaved them and made them pick cotten whilst they went into their little white churches and praised Jesus! What a bunch of hypocrites! Even the Bible condones slavery and gives instructions on how to care for slaves! Do you believe that the creator of this universe condones slavery? I don't, and therefore I denounce the mythology that claims the our creator would condone any such behavior. To believe in the Bible you necessarily must believe that God is truly a cruel heartless bigoty who is clearly a male chauvinist. For me this is a HUMANITARIAN issue. Look at what Christian organizations are trying to do today in the name of Jesus Christ,... They denounce same gender love and what to put it into law to harrass anyone who dares to love someone of the same gender. They want to teach their myth in public schools as though it is established science and has just as much merit as science (which is doesn't). Moreover, they won't even consider pantheism as a potential picture of God. They demand that God is the male chauvinistic bigoted God of the Bible. Why? Why do they insist that the Biblical picture of God is true when there are so many things against it? Not the least of which is that it's an ugly story. To believe in the Bible you must believe that YOU were the reason that Jesus had to be nailed to a pole. Anything less and you are rejecting the sacrifice! The Bible DEMANDS that you have failed your creator and caused him great harm. Why would you want to believe such a thing? Do you feel that you really were against God and tried your best to spit him? I've never felt that way in my entire life. Perhaps that's one reason why I find the story so utterly absurd. Also, what's wrong with the pantheistic picture of God? It's totally 100% unconditional love. All are children of God. All return to God. No one is guilty of making God have to sacrifice anything. Much less ALL being quilty like the Bible demands. Can't you see that it's just a brainwashing scheme that was created to make everyone feel that they had no choice but to join the CHURCH. Those days are over. The real creator of this universe is not the nasty judgmental bigot that the authors of the Bible have claimed. It was all a big lie. The eastern view of Pantheism is far more divine, and far more likely to be the true picture of spirit. In the meantime, people need to be educated why the biblical picture of God can't possibly be true. You ask why I speak out against it. What do you expect me to do? Wait until Christians are burning gays at the stake (or having them incarcerated legally and harrassed by the law for their natural love for each other?) I speak out against this kind of bigotry and hatred because I can. This is the RIGHT that our forefathers fought for. In fact, my own father served in WWII. I speak out against it in the hope that some people will hear my views and realize that I speak the TRUTH. I dream of the day when we can put this bigoted hateful religion behind us and move on with a truly loving and humane world. I am sorry you feel that way Abra... I just don't think the verse is bigotry at all...you also have to read the whole chapter not just one verse anyway. It doesn't say much more than... if you are not with me then you must be against me basically to me. Besides no one can proove there is no God (not yet anyway)so it doesn't even apply to you or too many people any way. And yes the bible does give instructions on how to treat your slaves. He wanted people to treat them good. That is just the way it was back in those days. Didn't say it was right. And no, mankind hasn't failed God it's just that all humans do sin regardless of whether they think they have or not if they have started walking and talking usually they lie as their first sin. Some continue to lie even if it is only to themselves or to others in a dating forum, etc. God does have unconditional love for his creation and it would be unfair for sin or wrongs to go unpunished unless there is remorse and good intentions. Unfortunately Christians have both good and bad people just like any other people. No one is perfect remember? We like to sin too much!  I certainly am not but it doesn't mean I wouldn't like to be perfect! It just seems you reject God... and that is your perogative... and I know you feel you are justified in your reasons for doing so; so I'll still love you no matter what!  
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Fri 02/13/09 09:29 AM
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I agree Abra. Once again, you hit it on the head with your observations.
Exodus 21 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. 21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: "Take an awl and thrust it through his ear." 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. God's rules for buying slaves and splitting up their families. You can buy one, but you must set him free on the seventh year. If you have "given" him a wife and she bears children, then you get to keep the wife and kids. If he refuses to leave his family when his seven years are up, then bore a hole though his ear and keep him forever. (That sounds fair!) 
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It just seems you reject God... and that is your perogative... and I know you feel you are justified in your reasons for doing so; so I'll still love you no matter what! This is where you misunderstand. I don't reject "God" at all. On the contrary I've always been in very good standing with God. All I'm saying is that the Bible is so ungodly and totally not divine, that it coudln't possibly have been the thoughts and suggestions of the creator of this universe. I think the slave verses are a testament to that in themselves. The book was clearly written by men, not by any God. That's not rejecting God, it's rejecting the writings of men who claim to be speaking for God. I denounce the Bible as the blaspheme of men. It's clearly not the word of any God. When I point out how despicable God would need to be in order for the Bible to be true, I'm not passing judgment on God. What I'm doing is pointing out why the Bible can't be the word of God. In other words, I don't believe that God is despicable. Therefore I reject the Bible as being ungodly and clearly not the word of any God. |
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It just seems you reject God... and that is your perogative... and I know you feel you are justified in your reasons for doing so; so I'll still love you no matter what! This is where you misunderstand. I don't reject "God" at all. On the contrary I've always been in very good standing with God. All I'm saying is that the Bible is so ungodly and totally not divine, that it coudln't possibly have been the thoughts and suggestions of the creator of this universe. I think the slave verses are a testament to that in themselves. The book was clearly written by men, not by any God. That's not rejecting God, it's rejecting the writings of men who claim to be speaking for God. I denounce the Bible as the blaspheme of men. It's clearly not the word of any God. When I point out how despicable God would need to be in order for the Bible to be true, I'm not passing judgment on God. What I'm doing is pointing out why the Bible can't be the word of God. In other words, I don't believe that God is despicable. Therefore I reject the Bible as being ungodly and clearly not the word of any God. Ooops sorry...it's the bible not God that you reject...the writings of men. Not God. |
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Uhh, can you highlight it or something? What am I looking for? It is scriptural proof that all the races and other people were created on the 6th day and then after the 7th day he created Adam & Eve. The others are who mated with Cain What races were created on the 6th day and what others mated with Cain..............Uh I dont know what bible your thumpin but it must have ripped pages...............A whole lot of pages and some pages someone wrote on them and werent even part of the bible......................wow to you |
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So now you're saying that the Bible isn't the "Word of God"? Pretty sure God wouldn't appreciate that.
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So now you're saying that the Bible isn't the "Word of God"? Pretty sure God wouldn't appreciate that. The so-called "WORD OF GOD" was written by a MAN so im not taking it all as GODS word............I think religion is a form of control and it has been used this way to intimidated and cause fear to the believers.................. |
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I think a lot of religions are a form of control too. But I have practically copied and pasted almost all of the first 2 chapters of Genesis here already. On the 6th day all of mankind was created which includes all races.
They were made into flesh after God had rested on the sabbath day. The bible says this not me.... |
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So now you're saying that the Bible isn't the "Word of God"? Pretty sure God wouldn't appreciate that. The so-called "WORD OF GOD" was written by a MAN so im not taking it all as GODS word............I think religion is a form of control and it has been used this way to intimidated and cause fear to the believers.................. Yes it was writteen by man but it is so full of truths it just can't be ignored. |
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So now you're saying that the Bible isn't the "Word of God"? Pretty sure God wouldn't appreciate that. The so-called "WORD OF GOD" was written by a MAN so im not taking it all as GODS word............I think religion is a form of control and it has been used this way to intimidated and cause fear to the believers.................. Yes it was writteen by man but it is so full of truths it just can't be ignored. Really and the truths that you know are? I have nothing against faith as long as it is factual but for people to take one book and think its GODS WORDS without questioning why it was made and why it was written is faulty................By the way God made things I believe other animals not other races...............if other races came then why arent there more than ADAM and EVE.............because ADAM AND EVE procreated and thats how civilizations were built........... |
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So now you're saying that the Bible isn't the "Word of God"? Pretty sure God wouldn't appreciate that. The so-called "WORD OF GOD" was written by a MAN so im not taking it all as GODS word............I think religion is a form of control and it has been used this way to intimidated and cause fear to the believers.................. Yes it was writteen by man but it is so full of truths it just can't be ignored. Written by men and edited by more men. At this point it's the longest "Grape Vine" in history. What MAY have been once said by God or Jesus has now been either blown out of proportion or has been transformed in to a flat out lie. If you ask me it may be the world greatest Tall Tale. Though I enjoy the story of Paul Bunyan much more. |
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I think a lot of religions are a form of control too. But I have practically copied and pasted almost all of the first 2 chapters of Genesis here already. On the 6th day all of mankind was created which includes all races. They were made into flesh after God had rested on the sabbath day. The bible says this not me.... Iamgeorgiagirl....God did NOT make ALL mankind on the sixth day.... God ONLY made Adam and Eve on the sixth day .... and if you continue reading on in Genesis......you will see where God told Adam and Eve to go MULTIPLY. (and once more, man was NOT made into flesh AFTER God had RESTED on the sabbath day... nowhere in scripture does it say that Iamgeorgiagirl.... scriptures says ,God made adam and eve on the sixth day....period.) And ALL the different races still ALL came from adam and eve.... God is a God of variation...and although all mankind comes from adam and eve, no one is exactly the same....... each human being is UNIQUE.......in fact, so unique, that each person has his/her own unique set of fingerprints... 
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Edited by
splendidlife
on
Thu 02/19/09 10:42 AM
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Did we even have "Higher Powers" before AA? Did they coin that phrase I wonder for the specific purpose of not scaring away secular alcoholics who need help? In 1902, before the inception of Alcoholics Anonymous, Philosopher William James questions the reality of a Higher Power in THE VARIETIES OF RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE: A Study in Human Nature. In 1910, Ralph Waldo Trine wrote Heredity and the Higher Power and in 1917 he wrote The Higher Powers of Mind and Spirit. |
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So now you're saying that the Bible isn't the "Word of God"? Pretty sure God wouldn't appreciate that. The so-called "WORD OF GOD" was written by a MAN so im not taking it all as GODS word............I think religion is a form of control and it has been used this way to intimidated and cause fear to the believers.................. Yes it was writteen by man but it is so full of truths it just can't be ignored. Really and the truths that you know are? I have nothing against faith as long as it is factual but for people to take one book and think its GODS WORDS without questioning why it was made and why it was written is faulty................By the way God made things I believe other animals not other races...............if other races came then why arent there more than ADAM and EVE.............because ADAM AND EVE procreated and thats how civilizations were built........... The truths I know are... God is real and people still live after the flesh body dies. The bible is written by men as well as misinterpreted but... can you tell me something that is untrue in it? |
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