I am not sure if what I am actually attempting to discuss is being understood as the conversation has gotten off track.

I would like to know what people think about the idea of HOW "free will" fits into God and the "commandments."

It is not as if these were just laws that had set punishments. And the old testament obviously had a bunch of other so called "laws" besides the ten commandments.

To break any of Gods laws was a "sin" and the Bible states that the wages of "sin" is death.

Therefore by stating that all humans were sinners, all humans are or could be by law, sentenced to death.

These were old Judaic laws. These were the laws of the Jews.

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But today, I hear people, (even Christians) claim or admit that we have "free will." Christians claim that "free will" is a gift from "God." (Their God of course.)

But if we do have "Free will" then there can logically be no "commandments" which will result in "sin" for their disobedience which comes with the punishment of death.

So either we don't have "free will," or there are no commandments which are enforceable by the punishment of death.

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I believe we do have free will and that it comes with no strings.

There are no commandments, therefore there can be no sin.

There can only be the true law of God which is the unwritten law of cause and effect.

No man can wield this law against his fellow man as religions try to do. All men are subject to the true law of God, the law of cause and effect.

There are many things I don't understand myself. But I don't seek people out who believe differently than I do and ridicule them. If it was an honest attempt to understand, I could see that, but it's clearly not. No hard feelings, but anyone looking at these topics objectively can see that.

Krimsa, I normally make a habit of skipping your remarks, but I'll make an exception this one time..


"There are so much wiser pictures of God that you can choose from. Why choose such an ugly picture of God?

Why put your faith in the idea that you have failed your creator?

Such a dismal picture.

You are only saved by 'grace' because you are totally unworthy of God's love.

That's truly a pathetic picture IMHO.

It would be truly sad if we had no choice but to know that this was our pathetic reality."

That was what I was referring to. That and many statements like it.

I would like to know what people think about the idea of HOW "free will" fits into God and the "commandments."

To be honest Jeannie, I don't see any problem with free will and "Commandments".

You have the free will to either do as you're told or suffer the consequences.

Where's the problem?

To me, that's not a problem.

However, a God who will judge people for what they supposedly cannot do on their own is utterly ludicious.

I agree the topic has moved Jeannie. Thx for clarifying what you originally wrote. I believe otherwise, but wish you well on your journey for the truth)

Oh yea I remember skad. You were the one that pissed off like 15 people on a thread when you insisted that all Atheists are sad, depressed, lonely hearts around the holidays

You have some nerve. Yeah, I’m not hearing it. I didnt remember you till just now. That was horribly misguided of you.

Skad,

You believe otherwise but what do you believe about "free will?"

If we have "free will" then why do you think there are commandments?

If all humans are "sinners," and all "sin" is punishable by death, then that very law is what convinces people that they need a savior to die in their place.

Because "The wages of sin is death."

The Bible says that if you believe in Jesus "you will not die and you will have everlasting life."

But people die every day anyway. I don't know of anyone who is more than 150 years old, Christians or non-Christians all die.

And if you are talking about life AFTER DEATH or heaven, that cannot be confirmed or proven.

I believe that spirit is eternal and that I will exist forever if not in this form then in some other form. I believe in free will.

Because "The wages of sin is death."

The Bible says that if you believe in Jesus "you will not die and you will have everlasting life."

But people die every day anyway. I don't know of anyone who is more than 150 years old, Christians or non-Christians all die.

And if you are talking about life AFTER DEATH or heaven, that cannot be confirmed or proven.

skad, you took that snippet from this website

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=92186

If you recall hellkitten busted you by presenting the actual article from the Humanists Association and that was what infuriated a dozen or more atheists and agnostics on the thread.

I believe we have the free will to choose life through Christ or death through ourselves, personally. Thx for asking)

Because "The wages of sin is death."

skip...again, it's just becoming insanely humorous to try to keep up with this.

I'll just let the readers of the thread read what's presented and make their own decision.

Actually this is another oxymoron here as well.

In some places the Bible seems to say that the wages of sin is death.

So how did that get turned into the idea of eternal damnation?

Also, where does it ever say that to not believe that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham is a sin?

Jesus himself said:

John 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."

Clearly if Jesus was God and he said in his own words that he will not judge those who don't believe his words, then being a non-believer cannot possibly be a sin.

And therefore it could not be grounds for either eternal damnation, or even death.

Where do Christians come up with all their hateful conclusions about God being so anxious to punish people?

It clearly didn't come from Jesus.

According to Jesus it's not even important to believe in his words, much less that he was any sacrifical lamb of God.

So where do the Christians get off even claiming that this is the case?

I'm, sure they can dig up verses that contradict what John claims that Jesus said. But if they do all that proves is that the Bible is full of contraditions. Either people have been misquoting Jesus or Jesus himself was sending mixed messages.

Neither scenario would be good.

Actually this is another oxymoron here as well.

In some places the Bible seems to say that the wages of sin is death.

So how did that get turned into the idea of eternal damnation?

Also, where does it ever say that to not believe that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham is a sin?

Jesus himself said:

John 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."

Clearly if Jesus was God and he said in his own words that he will not judge those who don't believe his words, then being a non-believer cannot possibly be a sin.

And therefore it could not be grounds for either eternal damnation, or even death.

Where do Christians come up with all their hateful conclusions about God being so anxious to punish people?

It clearly didn't come from Jesus.

According to Jesus it's not even important to believe in his words, much less that he was any sacrifical lamb of God.

So where do the Christians get off even claiming that this is the case?

I'm, sure they can dig up verses that contradict what John claims that Jesus said. But if they do all that proves is that the Bible is full of contraditions. Either people have been misquoting Jesus or Jesus himself was sending mixed messages.

Neither scenario would be good.

12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Does Jesus Judge people or not?

John 5:26-27 (Judgment)
The Father ... hath given him authority to execute judgment.

John 8:15 (NO Judgment)
Ye judge after the flesh; judge no man.