Have u ever read the patriot act in its entirety? Take a look at all the stuff that your paying for, its east to see that its time to remove this cancerous tumor of the backs of the working man!

At great risk to the utopian theory I've been backing, I would like to ask you Thomas the following question.

I do believe every person has value. In a society where there is no money the value of every person is worthy of and granted the necessities of life. Every person has access to everything they might desire.

Thomas, what contribution can you envision yourself making to such a society? A valued contribution can be anything, from creating the plans for a connecting bridge or tunnel between land masses, to giving comfort to people by a great attitude, or adding beauty through art.

Now, be honest and sincere, when you answer, because I want others to see your value too.

Besides the intrinsic value of you, what do you think you would contribute?

Well if you look at the rise & fall of the dollar...does it really matter when everything we have is still there?

I keep saying we need to wipe out all debt...whatever people have is theirs. From their businesses, to their boats homes cars etc. A worldwide year of jubilee!

Unfortunately the plantation owners are too greedy to see the honesty in all that. They still think they lost something when the only thing that is relative at this point is money!!!!


I also agree that people should not give into fear but see what's going on as an opprtunity to create wealth for themselves. this could be the best blessing in disguise known to John Q. Public. I never liked the idea of everything being gobbled up into corporations where they call all the shots.

BTW...this could be the best time to get involved in not only public service but various business groups out there that help people develop skills that can help them to create their own wealth doing what they love to do.

New things are always a challenge but it's still doable.

Well I'm not sure we can ever have a cashless society but we can bring honesty & integrity back to money & money making.

Yes, you know like the last administration did!

spend a few days in civil court listening to the grievances just a few days, and any hope of humanity being able to coexist without rules and an authority to enforce those rules would be gone.

Sorry just one cynics perspective.
I would play music whenever I felt like it, I would write short stories for fun, and try to get people to read them. I would study and try to add value through my knowledge, wait . . these are all the things I try to do now!

I don't think it takes utopia to make a difference. In fact I would wager that in a less then perfect world there is much more meaning in the small difference you can make.

Maybe we should all take a note from Tony Robbins and find a way to help someone, maybe feed a family during the holidays, help kids learn to read and be passionate about learning. Help remove superstition and foster research and tolerance.

Tony Robbins TED talks.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/tony_robbins_asks_why_we_do_what_we_do.html

I don't think it is possible to bring honesty and integrity back to the making of money the way our system works, there will always be the powerful in the system we have that will abuse everyone else. And a society that secretly condones it because they too want that same power.

Too many of our young adults today value very little, and don't contribute to the family much less to society. They have grown up in greedy times, and have no sense of what it was like to live in harder times.

And greed has infected both sides of the isle, so greed doesn't have a certain political label. We as society have a secret wish to be as powerful, and as long as we find money the only avenue to happiness we will continue to educate our kids in the same old ways which glorify money and status.

I had already said this privately, but I had always wished that I could work at what I love, doing work for people with out the worry of food and bills and a roof over my head. It's very difficult to help others and have to worry if you will survive yourself


I used to do a lot of home repair for older folks, mostly women, men rarely called me to work for them. I loved it, and I loved the people I did it for, but I couldn't make enough money at it because I charged them according to what they could afford, often doing much of it for free or at my expense.

My brother who is wealthy found me a bit irresponsible. I didn't see it that way though I did understand that I would be poorer in my older years. But poor didn't bother me, there are degrees of poor. Of course I would not want to be homeless, but my point was that I would have loved to be able to do what I loved with out the fear and anxiety of not being able to survive myself.

I always found more joy and worth in helping others that in adorning myself with things.

I loved to work and I still do, and I love helping my neighbors when I see them struggling to do things on their own. I just get a huge kick out of it.

Too often young people today don't see the value in helping others, they would just as soon stand their and watch you work, it wouldn't cross their mind to pick up a tool and help.... I think many in our government have the sam mentality, it's all about money and how little can we get away with giving the poor and the working class.

Unfortunately I see adult children living off their parents, and think nothing of asking for things, when their parents work their butts off to support that adult child. And if you tell them that they should feel bad that they contribute nothing, it doesn't even phase or occur them that they are dead weight.

So is that that a Utopian pipe dream? I guess it would be to those that value money and status over being useful and helpful and loving to see people happy. I think it would be much harder for those that grew up privileged than those who did not.

More than just how could it work, we as people are too mistrusting of each other and too unwilling to let go of preconceived ideas to see it as possible. We will more likely have to be forced to see things differently, by greater hard times. For some of us that will change mindsets, but then you still have to deal with people that even in hard times 'have' the rescourses to become even richer, and the cycle never ends. very few will find their circumstances good enough to become rich.

Only certain folks will be able to take advantage of the unfortunate times ahead. And they seem to be the very same people that got the rock rolling down hill in the first place.

Most folks will not be able to take advantage of lower prices and lower anything in the next few years, because they were at a disadvantage to begin with.

Even though I have no debt, I also have very little work coming in due to the past 8 years of uncertainty. And who cuts back the most in harder times. I have found it's those with he least worries financially that cut back, there by causing everyone under them to be far less secure.

In my business it was always the rich that never paid on time and many times tried to avoid paying, and it was the working stiffs that always paid you.

I think our government has no idea how the real world survives on a daily basis and how their actions hurt far more people, and the fact that they seem clueless and selfish doesn't bother many of us.

Ok I am beginning to ramble.

Bushi, thanks for the link you provided, about how and why we make the decisions we do. I also watch a few other TED talks. One was about education; how and why it stifles creativity. Why should the most creative among us be told their talent is not as valuable as learning math and language? Why are the creative curriculum the fist to be cut? If the intrinsic value of a person is diminished because others think it would not be profitable, we have lost great talent and the person has lost the ability to feel fulfilled. You use a creative side because it makes you happy, not because it will pay your way. But how valuable is your music or your writing to those who ‘enjoy’ it? You are fortunate that you also have the ability to comprehend and possibly utilize science for you living.

Back to how and why we make choices – someday if your “way to make a living” encroaches on your ability to do what fulfills you, you may reason that you are still serving the greater good, and you may well be doing so. But for all the creative talent we loose to education, how many people are loosing out of aesthetic value, and true self-fulfillment? You have already said:



The small differences have more meaning. Why, because they in scarce supply, like everything that can be bought? We are so affected, emotionally, by the good deed, why? What compromises a good deed today? Giving ‘something’ that someone else cannot afford to buy? Helping someone, who cannot “afford” a way to help themselves. A person with nothing to do comes to your hospital bed to hold hand, good deed. But a person gives up a days pay to come hold you’re hand and the good deed touches the emotions of many.

I do have a question I hope you will answer. When you commented about civil court grievances, what were they about, that cannot be traced to an environment and the mind set of capitalism?

I agree, and well said. When the hard times hit we spin our wheels and spend our time trying to crawl out, to gain a foot hold with a fist full of dollars. While those with power, over us, continue to be those with the most money. We react by striving for a comfort level that includes the necessities. Those in power react, by cutting staff, cutting back on MAKING the necessities we can no longer afford. Eventually someone, usually a political figure, comes up with some new government entitlement program, to “assist” those with the greatest need. Eventually enough people find a status quo in their lives, even thought poverty will exist at an all time high, but they will still be the minority.

Then corporations raise their prices to ‘overcome’ the scarcity the depression caused. They validate it by saying they needed to buy more raw material, bringing jobs to more people, and cover the raise in taxes, that occurred to cover the new Federal entitlements. And inflation begins again on a dollar that is deflated once again.



I imagine this was in response to QS. I thought the same thing but in addition I thought, the words “take advantage” were quite appropriate, because to make a lot money at a time when others are in severe need, is indeed to “take advantage” of the suffering of others.



Our government is a group of individuals, as easily influenced by the environment of capitalism as anyone else, and they are more likely to be pursued by wealthy entities, because they are the figureheads, the liaisons between the money and the power. Furthermore, the value we place on these “public servant” is completely and utterly out of sync with their purpose. The benefits they receive for their time in office, at the expense of the public, does not denote a ‘service job’. But they are in control and we are not.

Have them spend a few months traveling with Mike Rowe on Dirty Jobs. Maybe they'll have a little change of heart about who's more valuable to this society.

There is somewisdom in the words you preach. Can't remember the guy's name off the top of my head but his philosophy was to have machines do most of our work for us, and to let people do what they will. Unfortunately there are millions of years of animal instinct that needs to be reprogrammed in order to achieve this. But the resulting technological advancements could be greater than anything we have ever seen.

For instance, agriculture was supposedly the major stepping stone humanity took in order to bring us out of our tribal days, in which, all day was spent gathering food for nourishment. Agriculture freed up some time, people became inventive. The biggest increase in free time was seen in the 1900's when industrial agriculture was introduced. This is also when computers were invented, which let to laptops, cell phones, etc. you get the picture...

Unfortunately as a way of life people need something to work for right now. Our instinct for survival governs our hunger for money. Instinctively we strive to be better than others because of mother nature's "survival of the fittest" philosophy. So when it comes to dealing with nature i don't think we as a species have evolved to the point where we can just ignore a billion or more years of mental programming...

Like i said earlier, i agree. Right now we are not ready for complete freedom. However, we should be stepping towards it, not away from it.

90% of the world is honest enough to live without governing. This is what i meant about "somewhat" honest. Nobody is perfect, and we do make mistakes, but this can be overcome with maturity and support. It's the other 10% that we need rules for. And even still the rules should never be for their own good. This is where you let responsibility take over. My philosophy is this:

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."

-Thomas Jefferson


Many problems could be resolved in our government if we merely revisited what our forefathers intended for us...

Drivinmenutz



Jacque Fresco, a most amazing person.
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

Listen to him speak, look at his history, be amazed at what we are not told and what we don’t know.

You have misgivings; entirely understandable. I’ve been asking many questions and doing research for the last couple years, since my first introduction to zeitgeist. I’ve also been studying psychology and philosophy, and I believe the animal instinct you speak of; survival instinct, is instinct that comes into play upon threat. When we perceive a threat to whatever our means of survival is, we react, and it can be vicious. Take away the threat to our survival and we revert to a more natural state.

It must be natural for us to be a social creature, our survival has depended on our being part of a society. We are not a hearty creature and our evolution and our blanket of society, our tools, our technology, has led us to be even more fragile creatures.

We depend on our ability to be social; all we need to learn is how to be civil. That may take a couple generations, in a moneyless society, but it come naturally. Take away what threatens each of us and we have little to be uncivil about.

We are creatures given to mobility, to motion, to constant change. In this, we are like every other feature of the universe, in motion, in flux, becoming. If moving means change, and our nature is to move, we have to decide which direction to step, why not decide to take the steps that lead to something different?

I don’t foresee this goal will be a reality in my lifetime, but depending on future circumstances, it may become a phenomenal work in progress, before I leave.

In the YouTube Bushi gave us, Robbins says, “if we never risk being wrong, we never take the chance that we could be right” or that we could be leading the way to something better.

I know what change people would need to make, and I know how ingrained the lessons of generations can be. But sometimes in history radical changes have served to make us better.

We have been sick a long, long time, because we are afraid of a change that leads to unknowns. We already know what we have, we know it cannot be fixed, we know what we are doing to the ecosystem and to each other, and it isn’t good. What good would come of continuing in the same pattern? The “we” that must be considered is the whole of humanity, not a nation.

It’s time to know that we cannot change anything for the good of humanity, if we don’t consider all of humanity in that change.



I like the quote and I have appreciated you conversation.

Inspiring words Di>!

Maybe we can.

It’s time to know that we cannot change anything for the good of humanity, if we don’t consider all of humanity in that change.


That says it all for me. While we go out of our way to separate ourselves from the rest of humanity we create more and more divisions on all kinds of levels. It's not fun to look around and think the world is going to the dogs, but worse that some could care less, they are more concerned with trying to control instead of trying to do things that would inspire people to change things.

This isn't an Obama thing, this is a people and humanity thing. It's about making changes because it's the right thing to do for everyone, not the few that make their fortunes off of everyone in spite of the side affects and the dangers to their very consumers.

Red,

I see what you are saying, but respectfully disagree on most accords. If you immediately remove allsortsof currency from us, the change is much too drastic for us to handle. I truely believe crime, suicides, mental disorders, etc. would skyrocket in this attempt to surpress a billion years of evolution. Perhaps one day we can achieve this. But we start by giving people their freedom back. Cut back on big government, stop holding everyone's hand, then watch people grow. People don't grow unless you give them responsibility. The more responsibility you take away, the less rational and mature people become.

I urge you to look at the raising of a child. If you dress your child his or her whole life, and pay for everything he or she wants, never make them lift a finger, you will have a misfit. Someone dependent on everyone else. Someone who is self absorbed. The list goes on. This case may not be true every time, but often spoiling a child leads to poor behavior. I doubt there is any argument to this.

How would we overcome this?

Drivinmenutz,

Well, you have just stated the biggest problem I see in attaining the goal; beginning.

I would like to say I agree with you, about cutting back government oversight, but I'm not sure I do. Here's the reason.

We have, at this moment, more technology available to us than we put into use. The reason this technology is not allowed to be utilized is two-fold.

First, putting this technology in place, in a capatolist world would be extrememly costly; only a government or cooperative could afford to do so.

We would not want a private philanthopy involved because that would only replace what this veture would take away (private ownership)

Second, much of this technology would wipe out the need for fossil fuels.

REALLY imagine that! The phenominal empire that now lords over world economies, folding. Not only would millions be our of work, but the most powerful poeple who back the capitalist structure would be gone. The new cooperative that owns the structures are "the people" of the governments who formed the cooperative.

If every country would become a part of a cooperative effort to create the technololgy that would set us fee, eventually, money would mean nothing, becasue the people of the world would own every major technological advancement, making a moneyless society. By this time most people would already be out of a 'paying' job. They will have been provided for by all the new technological advances.

So what happens to all the people as new project are done and they are put out of work. As each new project is completed a small tax can be put in place for it usage. Instead of a huge gas bill, electric bill, phone bill etc. We pay a smaller portion in tax. That tax supports the poeple who were put out of work. As I said above, eventually the technology would be doing most of supporting, and money will have dimimished in value to next to nothing.

This is not a well thought out design, and it's not all there is to the idea. The plan goes into much greater depth than these few words can begin to describe.

But with any vision, you may get the point and understand the strategy.

We do indeed need to change the Federal government,all government, infact, but maybe not in the ways you would consider. Maybe it's an attidute adjustment, maybe it can be done when enough people are ready to demand this kind of change.

It's because I don't have all the answers that I enjoy discussing it. It's a vision of a future that just needs the right ideas to be implemented.

It's ok to ramble too. I think a person of integrity can have the best of both worlds. there is nothing wrong with making money as long as it's done honsetly & there certainly isn't anything wrong with helping others.

There are so many groups always looking for people to help out. there are also groups that teach people to create wealth doing what they love to do also.

Life is to be enjoyed.

C.S.Lewis described government thusly:

If the population of a given land were condensed into one hundred men, ninety would be fools, nine would be knaves, and one would be a wise man. The most craven of the knaves would proclaim himself King and convince the other knaves to help him rule the fools. The wise man would wisely stay out of it.