Ruth, speaking of books... have you ever read anything from Scott Cunningham??

Yes I have read all or parts of all his books.

I've found and registered at the official Penczak discussion forums.

Unfortunately there's nobody there!

It's dreadfully empty. There are few posts but they are old. I was the only active member signed in.

It's going to be one of those forums where it takes several months before getting a reply.

I was a bit surprised. I thought there'd be more traffic than that.

Oh that's too bad, Abra. I have found that Pagans have less to discuss amongst themselves because there is nothing to argue about.

Thats true. A lot of the Pagan forums are empty. If there is anyone discussing a topic, there is less arguing. I think probably the reason for that is its already a given that Pagan spirituality is very diverse. No one expects any kind of consensus on belief because there are different types of Paganism and varying interpretations.

Precisely. While there can be a good exchange of ideas, there really isn't any intense discussions because when it comes to spirituality eveyone is right.

And that is the way it should be, for everyone

It does make for some boring threads though.

I left my incense cauldron out on the patio and now it is all wet from the rain and snow.

I used beach sand in it to hold the charcoal. And, I'm all out of beach sand. Oh, what a dilemma. I'll have to use kitty litter until I can get back to the beach. Woes me.

And will the cat............umh..............actually...........go there?

Well it is true that the few posts that are there are all positive comments and just people sharing positive things.

Just the same, I thought there would be more people sharing positive things.

In fact, I actually when looking for the forums to read and share positive thoughts. I was hoping to find some people who were experienced in shamanic journeying to hear their history of how they progressed.

I did expect to find some level of disagreement. Thus far I haven't seen anything that even remotely appears to be arguing, but I have seen people sharing their own different perspectives.

I think it's quite possible to share different perspectives when that is how they are presented.

Where arguments arise are when people start telling other people that they are 'unwilling' to accept the 'truth'.

That's a clear sign of someone who is trying to push their ideas onto other people as though they are absolute truths.

This is what makes Christianity so hostile. There are no free choices in Christianity. The idea is that Jesus is God and the Bible is the word of God.

Then that just deteriorates intos stupid arguments over just exactly what the Bible supposedly says.

Obviously if a doctrine is said to be the word of God and everyone has their own interpretation of what it means there's going to be arguments over exactly what God wants.

Clearly in religions like Wicca where there are no doctrines that are claimed to be the 'word of God' then there aren't going to be any arguments over what God wants.

I was just surprised that there wasn't more activity there because Penczak is pretty active in both the writings of popular books, and in teaching life classes.

I mean, at the very least I would think the students of his live classes might be there chatting away.

Maybe they are too busy meditating.

I suppose people could accuse Pagans in general of being "boring" because they are normally very unconfrontational at least as far as religiosity is concerned. They dont proselytize and generally are somewhat guarded about their own spirituality unless you ask them about it. That has been my personal experience when addressing them. I think it stands to reason that some are a little nervous because they dont know what your motivation is for asking and if you have bad or harmful intentions towards them.

Ive also heard them speak with nasty tongue against Christians. Sometimes in a joking manner but other times with a little more hostility. I know that kind of antagonism is strictly frowned upon but it still happens.

It actually works quite well when you switch the words around.

The idea is that the bible is God, and Jesus is the word of the bible.

You are joking, but it is true. Shamanic journeying and all other such paths are extremely personal and you won't find people teaching or discussing them on the internet. It's just too personal. Most people start with some books to give them a general "know how" and then it's trial and error after that. You just do it. (not to sound like a Nike commercial).

I just came from that site. I just read a shamanic journey that someone has posted. They were seeking their animal totem and it turned out to be a cobra snake which they were initially quite uncomfortable with.

The story was quite involved. There were bitten by the snake and actually died. But then were reawakened only to find the sake curled up on their chest.

I don't know if this poster was a male or female. (that's why I'm using they and their)

In any case, they went on to explain that the snaked turned out to be quite friendly after that and they were no longer afraid of it.

A large part of it had to do with a process of rebirth that the cobra explained was a necessary part of this person's personal travel.

You're right Ruth, these are totally personal experiences. There is no way that this lucid dreams can have meaning for other people (although other people may identify with it in some ways)

I found it quite interesting to read. There's hardly anything to 'argue' about in a case like this, unless someone is brash enough to try to push their interpretations onto the person who had the shamanic journey.

The person wasn't asking for interpretations, but did suggest that the meditation was quite frightening and asked if that is normal.

What's normal?

From my point of view shamanic journeys are indeed nothing more (and nothing less) than the purposeful inducement of lucid dreams.

All humans have shamanic journeys when they dream.

The only thing that a shaman does is learn how to induce them at will, and even call upon certain spirits or request certain revelations.

People who just go to bed and dream typically don't ask to be given specific visions or help with any specific thing. They just get whatever they dream about randomly.

In fact, that can be quite dangerous.

I mean if you go to bed at night thinking about something negative that is bothering you, then there is a very good chance that you will dream about that negative thing.

A lot of psychologists suggest thinking about positive things when you go to bed to induce positive dreams.

That's really a type of controlled shamanic journey right there.

But, yes Ruth, you are right. To share shamanic journeys is no different than sharing your dreams.

This is something that many people may just rather not do.

Especially if other people are just going to pick them apart with their own interpretation when they have no clue who you even are.

The idea that someone else can interpret your dreams without having any clue what you life is all about is truly absurd.

No question about that. They would need to make an aweful lot of assumptions that may not even remotely apply to you.

The best they could do is offer similar experiences of their own.

James you think that site you mentioned is slow? Go to the Buddhist thread on Mingle and you will see slow. There no one discussing anything

Yes, exactly. I posted a statement in one of the other threads about an experience or "vision" if you will about Jesus and the phrase "fear not". I won't go into detail (and didn't there) about this or any other experience because they are meaningless to others. I also don't want anyone commenting on them even if they could understand my experience, which they can't.

As a side note....I have heard others say that there first adventure in Shamanic journeying was frightening. I have never done one but I think they are different than dreams in some way. It is probably just the fear of something new and unknown, but I don't know for sure. Anyway, my answer would be that it is normal only because the people I know that have done it have reported that feeling.

What is there to discuss?

Its because Buddhists dont fight with anyone. Well there might be some radical right wing Buddhists that live in survivalists camps and conceal AK 47s underneath their loin cloths.