Well why don't we go back to calling it Winter Festival again then?

I do. I always have. I celebrate Yule. Sometimes I call it Samhain. Never Christmas. I just dont consider it Christmas but more winter solstice associated.

I figured that this thread was intended for atheists (and non Christians)

and didn't feel it was appropriate for me to come in here and criticize any more than it would be appropriate for someone to go into a Christian thread and say "hail Satan"

but apparrently not all feel that way

That's cool.
I'd call it that if I were atheist..but I'm christian so I still call it Christmas but I don't mind other people calling it different things or not celebrating it and what not.

Ok, here you say that they put the Date.. Dec. 25th on Yule to correspond with Christmas, so.. did Christmas choose that day first? And if Yule was originally celebrated late Dec. to early Jan., what does it have to do with Christmas? We only celebrate two days? I don't think anyone is trying to steal anything away from Pagans.

Prove to me that they are referring to the god of the bible or the Christian god. Our Founding Fathers (at least 6 of the higher profile ones that I can name right now) were Deists. Look up Ceremonial Deism if you require that.

No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ’s birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?

The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.

In Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia, honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers and dancers who traveled from house to house entertaining their neighbors. From this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.

Oh Krim.. You're just being silly now. We're supposed to reserve a holiday for the god of agricultural saturn now?

To me, you're just rebellious and bitter and that's not going to make for a very good holiday, hun.

Go, smile. It's ok) Don't be so Emo. It's Christmastime! or well, Happy Holidays!! or, um.. Let the Yuletide Ring!! Whatever you want it to be, just don't bring everyone down with you, kk? thx.. bai!

You asked and I gave you the information. Now you are saying the exact same nonsense to me that you said to guitarmanager when he tried to explain to you that not all Atheists are horrible, lonely people.

I dont celebrate Christmas. I recognize what Christmas is. It is an adopted and absorbed holiday by the Christians with distinctively Pagan origins. This is documented, historical fact. Not conjecture or simply what skad wants to believe since she has been taught something else in Sunday school since childhood

It is inappropriate for you to sit there and dictate what the holidays mean or represent to others on this forum.

Read this carefully. It does not contain the words "all" "every" or "none"

Normally, atheists either don't have family, don't spend time with that family, or have a family that doesn't follow their line of thinking this holiday season, which may cause tension. Every now and then, you'll find a full family of atheists, spending 'family' time together in warmth of spirit and love.



Never said anything about the facts. I did say something about you jumping in and saying, "They stole it!" over and over again. It's not history being discussed, it's your opinion that we shouldn't have that day for Christmas that I have an issue with. Why not? It's been there since you were born anyway.. let's move forward. kk?



I never did that. The thread talks about Atheists having a day they choose to celebrate. I gave greetings and best wishes to all belief groups out there, just to try to be nice.

In fact, I was actually trying to see things from Atheist pov, in saying that they may be feeling lonely with your quoted 79% of Americans saying Merry Christmas. I don't want anyone to feel bad about the way they view this season.. But I sure won't sit and watch someone else do it without coming in to defend.

I'm done with the cat fight. The only way to end a fight is to bow out graciously, and with my intentions being listed here, I bid you good day.

Notice that I am telling you in no uncertain terms that this is a baseless and biased assertion being made on your part.



For you to attempt to assume that "normally" Atheists dont have family or dont spend time with family or have family that dont follow their line of thinking during the holiday season is completely unfounded and is nothing more than conjecture on your part. My entire family consists of educated individuals who share secular oriented beliefs and we certainly have spent time together. My beliefs do not conflict with theirs. I have also known despicable Christians. One is in prison right now. You used the word "normally" which implies that you are attempting to convey that it is the standard occurrence which is completely false and you wont be getting away with that on my watch.



If you were not arguing the validity of my historical information then I would apologize, however you questioned it and then used the term "silly" to describe it.I could just as easily sit here and discuss how silly the concept of a virginal birth is couldn't I? I would not be disrespectful to you or the other Christians on forum. You have been outrageously presumptuous on the other hand. All I have given was historically accurate facts that you asked for in fact. The holiday was "absorbed" by the Christians. What else do you want me to say? The reality is yes, it was stolen but since Pagans are free to celebrate the origional Yule fest, who cares? I NEVER said that you can not have the day of Christmas. Where the hell did that come from?

I never quoted any stats either so you are confusing me with another annoyed person on forum that you might have insulted.

I merely posted on this thread to lend some balance to the conversation. Many of my close friends are Atheists or Agnostic and they celebrate the holidays because like me, they understand their origins and that Christmas does not have anything to do with the birth of Christ unless the individual chooses to view it in that manner. They dont necessitate your pity or referring to them as lonely. You are the one fighting with me. You were also the one asking the questions of which I gave you thoughtful answers you did not approve of. I wont tell you lies or fairy tales. You were never defending anyone. I had come to the aid of GuitarManager against your baseless assertions.

Good day.

I agree with that! I find it rather offensive to be told that most atheists are lonely, family-less people. Has that person been living under a rock?

See? That's just it. That statement wasn't made to put atheists down. It was simply in relation to Christmas, a holiday they claim not to celebrate. And I was agreeing with the forum title that you guys should have a part in this overall season in any way you desire..that we shouldn't try to leave you out.

And it was the guy recently in the news who put up an advertisement on the side of a bus that said .. it's ok not to believe in God.. that said he wanted his fellow atheists not to feel left out this season, so blame him for speaking out for your group.

But.. you take one thing and find the glass half empty, as usual. It will never end.. next post will be much the same, you'll find something to whine and complain about.. watch..

Krisma...

I wanted the thank you for all the info you posted. you definitely know your stuff and i appreciate that as i may not have been personally insulted but i felt the harshness and underlying insults in the bs well wishes on this thread.

My best friend is atheist and his family does a huge winter solstice party every year and regardless of what religious belief each family member is... they all attend and its always a massive affair.

when i told him about this thread and the things being said about lonely family-less atheists he laughed for a good 2 minutes straight and then shook his head.

and thats all you can do. ya know?

You guys are just too sensitive. That's all. I was sticking with the topic of the thread. I don't know what each individual atheist does. Chances are they're all different. I didn't mean to make you all sound lonely in general, just putting into perspective the way the media and people who believe differently play this out with atheists. It was in relation to the holiday called CHRISTMAS. Thx again for taking things out of context.

no one took anything out of context.

I understand your need to keep pushing it but that message was not addressed to you. you have every right to say what you will.. and you have... blatently. i'm not offended by what you said but that does not mean i don't understand why some people on here feel you've totally insulted them.

the message i wrote was not addressed to you in any way yet you still felt the need to respond.

it wasn't necessary but it shows alot.

***edit***
oh and happy holidays. :)

Skad, lets just drop this and no hard feelings. I think it was just one of those cases of someone wagging their tongue before they understood what it means to a diverse group of people. Obviously the holiday of "Christmas" which you personally celebrate revolves around Jesus and a particular religious doctrine. Thats one thing and no one argues with that.

Still others who are not Christian but might follow another spiritual path such as a Mother Earth or Goddess based religion might celebrate Yule, the origional festival in which the holiday of Christmas was absorbed and adapted.

Still no arguments there. It simply is what it is.

In the case of Atheists or Agnostics, you must understand that not all of them shun the holidays because they might have a grasp on their origins and in fact many do. That was the main point of contention that I had.

Peace and good wishes in this holiday season.

Thx. and agreed. I'm normally a sunny side up person and I was just trying to be nice with my post. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, but all I know about atheism is what I see in the media.

You have a great season, too)

Well that sounds like you are just trying to save face and that sentiment is clearly unfounded. Lets drop this. You succeeded in offending several people on forum but I think its understood it was done partly out of ignorance and now you get it.

Well, it was, b/c I was the only one who mentioned the lonliness topic. And now you can see where my thoughts on that originated. From an outspoken atheist taking out adds on behalf of all atheists and saying that they normally feel left out.

The rest of that post, all of it, was nice and in the spirit of the holidays. And even the part people started harping on wasn't mean, least not from this end.

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas.