Funches are you an ex pro football player? Like a name we might recognize even? Thats the rumor. Im not kidding.

I thought the rumor was that I was Satan ..

No. Its that you might have been a reserve quarterback for the Jets.

For me personally, being conscious or aware does not automatically equate to being a deity.

Deities are typically viewed as having 'individual egos' and even egotistical agendas.

In patheism the consciouness of god is not viewed in this way.

It's a concept of consciousness that goes beyond the human experience.

This is why they call it, "Mysticism".

It's a mystery that is beyond the human comprension on a pragmatic, or logical level.

Mysticism is indeed a faith-based belief.

There's no question about that.

If you're seeking a scientific explanation of 'god' I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

To the best of my knowledge there is no scientific explanation or description of god.

However, at the same time I would point out that there is much that science can't explain.

It can't yet explain Quantum behavior.

It can't yet explain Dark Matter.

It can't yet explain Dark Energy.

There are many things it can't yet explain.

So while science can't explain a potential 'supernatural' consciouness, that doesn't mean that one can't exist.

All that 'supernatural' means is that which has yet to be explained.

I was just offering one way to think of 'god's time'. I'm not suggesting that it's true.

I apologize if my first post came across as though I was speaking with authority.

I was simply explaining (with some authority) one possible view.

It was never my intent to suggest that this view necessarily represents any 'truth'.

I was just offering it as food for thought.

Are you kidding?

If Funches had been the quarterback for the Jets they would have been in the superbowl and Funches would be in the hall of fame.

Besides, he doesn't look like a quarterback at all.

He looks more like center. Who's going to get passed him after he hikes the ball?

If I were a quarterback I'd choose funches for the center.

Hike me the ball there big guy, and don't let any of those wimpy defensive guys get through the line!

I am with you on this one Funch.

I want to take a slightly different tact. If god always was, and infinite, what made him decide when to create this universe?

Why now.

Same problem to be conscious you need time, to have time you must have spacetime, or another medium for cause and effect.

Cause's have beginnings. Eternal cyclical causation by a not so conscious being doesn't bode well for a ultimate being that makes decisions now does it?

To exist outside of time, would mean all events happen at once, and then there goes free will.

So if god had no choice in creation . . . . is it really a god . . . or just a universal creation mechanism?

And Abra anything and everything that has not been understood has been called magic, or mystical, or a mystery.

Just because we cannot reach an understanding right now, does in no way mean we can not understand it ever.

"Abracadbra" if mysticism as you say is a faith based belief when it comes to the concept of the consciousness of God..this would only indicted that your concept of God is also faith based ..which means your concept of God has not moved beyond Christianity

Well inst Christianity about accepting Jesus as your savior because we are all born evil sinners?

According to Christians but not according to Christ...

It depends upon whose words you read, and how they are interpreted.

There's a lot more to philosophies than whether or not they are faith-based.

Everything is ultimatly faith-based.

Even atheism.

The Christian picture of God is extremely negative and is carved in stone in their doctrine. It's a story of an egotistical God who lusts for blood sacrifices.

There are many various pantheistic pictures of how "god" (spirit) may be. Most of them are quite positive. The spirit is neither egotistical, nor negative, nor does it lust for blood sacrifices.

But how that's percieved is a personal thing.

If you prefer the atheistic picture more power to you.

I just don't see how atheism is any less 'faith-based' than anything else.

"Abracadbra" ...atheism only exist because the existence of God is unprovable ..so why would an improvibility need faith to be improbable ..

also your claims that the pantheist God has consciousness can only come from that God itself ...but since the pantheist God have not communicated therefore no claims of consciousness or even the existence of a pantheist God can be made beyond wishful thinking

Abra how can a lack of belief be faith?

There may be folks who hold the belief there can be no god. Ok but that is not atheism (while that person would be an atheist that does not represent atheism, becuase nothing represents atheism expect the lack of theism). Atheism is merely no theism. Atheism is not a thing. It is the lack of a thing . . . . called theism.


If you are sure there is a god, you are a theist. What kind of theist depends on the type of belief.

If you have anything less then a belief that there is a god, you are an atheist.

I would wager there are ALOT more atheist out there then what many think. Theist tend to make Atheist sound like monsters so we tend to not take on that label, but my scientific mind cannot deny the reality of non belief.

I don't believe that the existence of God is unprovable.

That's just an empty cliché as far as I'm concern.

Can you prove that the existence of God is unprovable?

Just because no one has yet figured out how to prove it doesn't mean that's it's unprovable.

You're falling for old wive's tales Funches.

I'm currently looking into a system of exercises that I do indeed believe may have a potential in proving to me that there is a spiritual aspect to our existence.

Of course, that may not turn out to be true.

But why not at least look into it?

You never know until you try.

Also, whilst it may prove something to me, that proof may not be meaningful to you.

It's not going to be a logical argument. It's going to be an experience.

If I experience spiritual power, how could I prove it to you?

Moreover why would I even care to if you are hostile toward it?

Christians are always trying to convince people that they need to believe that God had his son buctheded to pay for their pathetic failings.

I have no need to sell god to you.

Like I say. If you want to believe in atheism be my guess. If you're happy with that, then what's the problem?

Are you trying to prove that god can't exist? Or that there can't be a spiritual nature underlying reality?

Good luck with that if that's your goal.

I don't see the point to it though. If you want to believe that then why not just believe it on faith and let go of it.

Move on to something else that brings you happiness.

On the other hand if you're in doubt and you are actually searching for something deeper I would suggest to follow your heart (your instincts).

My instincts are taking me to shamanism. Your's make lead on another path.

It does seem strange to me for someone who wants to claim that there can be no god or spiritual element to humanity at all to sit around talking about it on a religious forum.

There's just something truly unproductive about that.

Are you attempting to proselytize atheism?

Or are you just bored and looking for someone to talk with?

I see your point Billy,

This could be a difference in our thoughts on semantics of these terms.

I divide it up three ways.

1. Atheism
2. Agnostic
3. Theism

Atheism says there is not god (or spiritual realm at all)

Agnostic says, "We don't know what the hell is going on"

Theism claims that there is a God.

Ultimately, from the most technical point of view, I'm agnostic. That's just being honest (even with myself)

However, I do lean toward theism. I beleive that it is more likely than not that we are spiritual beings.

So from my point of view an atheist isn't just saying that they don't believe in a spiritual realm, but they are actually stating that they believe that there is no spiritual realm.

So looking at it that way, atheism is a faith that there is no spiritual realm.

It's more than just saying they don't know (that would be agnostic).

Atheism is saying, "There is no spiritual realm".

This is how I view these terms.

But I confess that this could be a personal spin on semantics and everyone isn't going to agree with my views on semantics.

So I'm just offering this as an explanation of my position and nothing more.

"Abracadbra" sure I can prove that the existence of God is unprovable by asking you this one simple question ...

if you met an enitiy that claim that it was God ..then describe how you would know it was God without sounding delusional

Well, you certainly win hands down there Funches.

I agree completely.

Even God couldn't prove that it is God.

If a seemingly all-powerful begin appeared to you and claimed that it was God, how could you be sure it was the entity that had actually created you?

You couldn't. You just have to trust that it was telling you the truth.

Or not.

That would be your choice.

Even God couldn't possibly know whether there is an entity superior to it.

After all, if God's creator doesn't want God to know that God has a creator than it will just hide that information from God.

Clearly, the very concept of an all-knowing 'god' is an oxymoronic concept.

I don't view 'god' as 'all-knowing'.

To me 'god' is spirit and spirit is something that humans can't wrap their mind around.

Hey, I can't wrap my mind around a universe coming into being out of nothing for no reason either!

So it's just as absurd to believe that the universe is a totally happenstance event as it is to believe in some kind of spiritual foundation.

For me, a belief in a spiritual foundation is more fun. Period.

To believe that it's all for naught just isn't attractive to me. So why bother?

I still hold that it's a matter of pure faith either way.

So why not put my faith in something that promises to be more fun?

It's my free choice.

I chose the more romantic picture and make no apologies for it.

I'm not attempting to convert you.

If you like atheism, more power to you.

That's cool with me.

I'm not an evangelist.

But you're beginning to sound like an evangelist for the gospel of atheism.

Try this on for size Funches,...

Let's toss away words like 'god' and 'spirit'.

Let's just talk in terms of the 'supernatural' and recognize that all this word means is phenomena which science has yet to explain.

We know that science isn't finished by a long shot. So there is much that science doesn't know. Thus there is much room for 'supernatural' possibilities.

One such possibility is that by gaining more control and insight into our own subconscious mind we may very well be able to manipulate this physical reality using pure thought alone. We can actually make up scientific theories that could explain such powers. All we need to do is invent a few new quantum fields (something which scientists are proposing quite a bit these days).

So what I'm looking into is the possibility of learning how to use these supernatural powers. Also, if they do exist, then perhaps they could be the foundation of my true consciousness (instead of being limited merely to my physical brain)

In other words, I can see 'supernatural' phenomena being something within our grasp.

Today we call it 'spirituality', maybe tomorrow we'll call it science.

The bottom line is that today's science can't deny these possibilities.

I think you're just too hung up on the word 'god'.

"Abracadabra" the question was one of logic not atheism ...

also the question didn't relate to the pantheists concept of a God .. according to pantheist views their God has no consciousness and exist as "The One Singularity" supposely responsible for The Big Bang

supernatural,spirit all relate to God ...which means it's not me that is hung up on the word God

in fact "Abracadbra" haven't you ever ponder as to why pantheists, deists etc. even use the term God ..is it because they are pyschologically addicted to the last religous God they once worship and simply can't let the God go

Funches I think you cant let go of god and you spend a lot of time projecting that onto others.