I am kinda wondering why we are called by some scientists...

Decendants.

I allways thought that it was our responsibility to put the next generation up on our shoulders so they could see farther... Go farther... Climb higher... and do more.

That would make us ascendents... Would it not?

Or is the human race falling not climbing?

I think not.

Else why leave us here.

If the opposite of PRO is CON.

What is the opposite of PROgress?

Well the saying goes "down through time."

It is interesting, I think I like ascendants better, and you actually have a solid reasoning.

I like it!!! I am stealing it.

Descendant: Something derived from another.

Since we are derived from our parents, we are their descendants.

maybe you were derived from a nother

i was derives from a mother - mine

and bushi's a thief!!

I am throwing away a bunch of old definitions that are baseless, or based entirely in tradition, this one seems like a great candidate.

So YES I R A THIEF OF UR WURDS.

every thought every human think, effect and create tomarrow.........the last of the shadow puppets

its ok Bushi, were what you call "honest thiefs" an old boss of mine expalined that as someone who if trying a door and finding it locked would move on - wher-as a dishonest thief was one who would force his way in anyway -

at least you and me tell the owner that were going to do such -

i'd like to steal some of DavidB,s words if i could ever understand what he's saying -

what better way for greater intelligence to create a place where all learn GRAND WISDOM, from comparing ALL THINGS AS OPPOSITES, just like "night and day" give understanding of the opposite of each other, creating a journey thru mortal time by all mankind to come to adulthood, such making for a COMING TO MATURITY, by blending and acceptence of others beliefs to figure out what THE WHOLE TRUTH IS, this accomplished than by the INSTALLATION by pre-believe a fragment of the whole truth sent in each mortal born, then making half of society see all truth thru a non-religious filter, and the other half thru a religious filter, then sending half of mankind thru time BACKWARDS, learning all from the "front to back", and the other half "back to front", and when they meet at the exact same predestined perfect time, all beliefs have matured or come to full growth, and both sides of the coin of mankind, are finally exposed for what is really believed as all the same, by REMOVING A HOLY SPIRIT or PERCEPTION THAT MAKE HALF OF MANKIND INTERPRET ALL TRUTH KNOWN AS HOLY TRUTH, AND THE OTHER HALF SEEING THE SAME TRUTHS THRU A NON HOLY FILTER, blinding mankind for a time to actually what is right in front of it's face, but this way handling the delievery and progression of truth, created all evil that was produced, or all good and bad, that was needed to produce a good and bad environement, opposite of the higher perfect realm, so that all when moving into a higher realm, now know what a PERFECT REALM IS, or there would have been point of reference of perfection when had, so each side seeing the other as "bad" was the perfect plan, creating not just a half perception, or limited perception, but now BOTH SIDES KNOWING AND SEEING AS ALL KNOWING, and what was as imperfect created by mans free will himself, to create perfect......

mankind fails to see it would have only knowledge of anything, instead of wisdom which has lived it, that come from real life expereince of all good and bad as a REAL ENVIRONEMENT.....

there was no other way for all knowing immortal beings, as the many fathers already having passed thru mortality, since "gods" are not gods until passing thru mortality to creater the wisdom of gods, creating all knowing offspring.......

indeed, a perfect imperfect environement called earth, that all things made have a beginning and ending, for the mortal to when becoming as immortal, to have the knowing now of what infinite is, having experienced and lived mortal.....

the earth then no more a "womb" where all mortals are sent, each with dna of belief already installed, to create the drive and ambition to travel the mortal path to uncover truth by living it......

how can it not be the perfect plan to create perfect wisdom WHEN COMPLETED......

PERHAPS WHAT IT SAID TO AGREE WITH THINE ADERSARY QUICKLY, AND "SATAN" WAS CALLED AS THE GREATE ADVERSARY?

PERHAPS WHY IT WAS SAID TO LOVE THY ENEMEIES?

ALL WILL BE AS WELL AND UNDERSTOOD IN THE DAYS TO FOLLOW, AS THE MINDS OF MANKIND SHED THE IGNORANCE EACH BELIEF HAS ADDED TO ITSELF WITH MORTAL MIND INTERPRETATIONS, THAT ONCE VEILED THE WHOLE TRUTH, FOR A TIME, AS PERFECTLY PURPOSED....

PERHAPS WHY IT WAS SAID, THAT "ALL" THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD?

PERHAPS WHY IT SAID THAT "EACH WAS GIVEN A "MEAUSRE" OF FAITH?

PERHAPS WHY IS WAS SAID "ALL" LIKE SHEEP HAVE GONE ASTRAY?

PERHAPS WHY IT WAS SAID THAT IN THE DAYS OF A NEW BEGINING, "GOD WOULD BRING ALL THINGS TO THE REMEMBERENCE"?

PERHAPS WHY IT WAS SAID THAT MORTAL MAN WOULD COME TO BE "WISE AS SERPENTS", BUT THEN SATAN WAS CALLED AS A SERPENT?

THE TRUTH BE HIDDEN IN ALL WORDS SPOKEN, WHEN IT IS SEEN THAT ALL MANKIND WAS CREATED EQUAL TO GOD, AND "ALL MANKIND WAS AS CHILDREN OF GOD", OR OFFSPRING IN "KINDERGARTEN THRU COLLAGE" WHILE ON EARTH, TO BRING A TOTAL CYCLE OF ONE EARTH CYCLE TO FULL MATURITY?

PERHAPS WHY IT WAS SAID THAT ON THE SEVENTH DAY "GOD RESTED".....

IF GOD REST, THEN MUST NOT SATAN REST AS WELL?

SATAN WAS CALLED AS "IGNORANCE" OF KNOWING MORE?

HAVING DATA, OR KNOWLEDGE, BUT NO "REVELATION", OR JUST MORTAL MAN NOT YET GROWN UP?

CALLED AS A "BIRTH" TO COME TO KNOW ALL KNOWING FOR MORTAL MAN HIMSELF?

IF A BABY IS LOOKED AT IN THE WOMB, IT COULD EASILY BE TURNED INTO A "EVIL" LOOKING MUTANT CREATURE, BUT WHEN IT IS BIRTHED, IS IS NOW SEEN AS PERFECT, AND BRING FORTH LIFE?

just ideas.....peace

all knowing created by the past, or so called failures by future generations, but yet at the same time, all NEW KNOWING COME TO EARTH, is from the young, that BRING NEW GREATER UNSERSTANDING FROM BIRTH, THAT MAKE ALL PROGREE FORWARD COMING FROM THE YOUTH?

LET THE CHILDEN COME UNTO ME?

LESS A MAN SE THRU THE EYES OF A CHILD, HE WILL NOT SEE THE "KINGDOM OF HEAVEN"?

WHAT BE HEAVEN, EXCEPT ENOUGH TRUTH OR MORE INFORMATION, TO CREATE PEACE AMOUNG ALL MANKIND?

ENOUGH KNOWING TO COMPLETE THE WHOLE TRUTH, THAT WAS "KEPT" FROM MAN?

IDEAS, IDEAS, IDEAS.....

WHO CREATE THEIR OWN?

EACH ORIGINAL SELF WHISPER THEM INTO THE EARS OF THE CONSCIOUS MAN, FROM THE OTHER HIGHER REALM CALLED HEAVEN, THAT EXIST RIGHT HERE, IN ANOTHER REALM?

hum...........peace

if mankind has NOT full access to all his memory, ALL OF IT, AT ALL TIME, HOW CAN HE "NOT FAIL"?

how can man be born with LIMITED FACULTIES, AND THEN BE BLAMED FOR FAILURE OF PERFECTION?

he cannot, and perhaps why it was said that god was JUST and ABLE to forgive, not merciful AND GRACEFUL to forgive, as HOW CAN ONE NOT BE FORGIVEN if it was caused by greater or original creation itself, SO THE FORGIVENESS FIND A TRUTH THAT SEE "HOW" NO FORGIVENESS WAS NEEDED?

in that day, any that blaspheme the "holy spirit" would be not forgiven in that day or the "age to come"?

how can unconditional love, which be called as god, have conditions on acceptence without condition for a time, and then change it?

if any man have an ear, let him hear?

if any man have an eye, let him see?

who control the seeing and the hearing then?

NOT HIMSELF, BUT DESTINY, WHICH BE RELEASED BY TIME?

A NEW BEGINNING, WHEN ALL PEACE IS CREATED ON EARTH?

JESUS TO RETURN?

the truth of all once said understood in all ways finally, as not what prove guilt, as for each scripture used to prove guilt, there is another that REMOVE AND PROVE NO GUILT?

the one a man find, as is it really found, or just believed when heard, when there were BILLIONS OF THINGS HEARD?

WHO PICKED AND SELECTED THEMSELF WHAT THEY BELIEVED?

perhaps why it was said that FORETHOUGHT created all belief, and nothing know it's own forethought, that create all it's own desires or belief......

perhaps whay it was said, that NO MAN CAN RESIST THE WILL OF GOD, OR THE PERFECT THING EACH WAS INSPIRED TO BELIEVE.....

as if when mankind as mortal was born, he began at 2+2=4, and progressed with natural evolution to quantan physics?

religion indeed pass away, when there is TRUE KNOWING OF "WHY" ALL THINGS WERE SAID, AND HOW THEY WERE TRUE, BUT NO FINAL REVEALING OF THE GRAND PLAN FOR THE REVEALING OF IMMORTAL KNOWING BY ALL MORTAL THINGS, UNTIL COLLAGE WAS COMPLETED BY ALL MORTALS?

ideas, ideas, ideas.......peace

if heaven was up, a higher realm, where perfection is not conatined by any mortal vessel, then hell would be the lower realm, and what lower realm be there except earth?

hell was called as seperated from god, where weeping and nashing of teeth was had?

what other thing has mankind lived out from beginning to end, except these exact things, called the pain of learning, that "god" hate, as to see the pain of a child, break the heart of any parent, or the pain of a loved one is "hated" even by mortal parents that love.....

hum.........

if one see thru a holy sirit, then is this not created by FEAR of things heard and read?

fear was said to be of "satan" or ignorance of not knowing the whole truth?

but satan was said to know all the truth himself?

ignorance created by instilling fear in anything born mortal, so then all things read 'DEFINED THRU FEAR FOR A TIME?

is the fear of old interpretations of "god" as a dictator passing away about just now these days?

hum......ideas, ideas, ideas.....

indeed, if mankind was said to be as "blinded" then who did the blinding?

greater all knowing, ON PURPOSE, TO CREATE THE EXACT SAME THINGS AS DESCRIBED?

Interesting semantic twist.

The apparent paradox seems to lie in the concepts of "source " versus "destination".

We "come from" a source (descend), but "go toward" a destination (ascend).

et blah cetera.

I often wonder why people refer to Heaven as "Up" and Hell as "Down". I've had some out of body experiences in my life, and I never felt that odd sensation of either ascending or descending. I was just, simply, someplace else. For the curious:

Hell... is more like the ancient concept of the Underworld, or Netherworld, than the newer Judeo Christian concepts of Sheol or Gehenna. In it, I saw people tormented by what evil or burndens that they brought with them from life. I also saw people enjoying themselves, and not suffering at all. Which blows the lid off of the traditional Christian conception that Hell is for torments, and only for the damned. Which it is *not* for!

You see, to the ancients, Hell was not Hell but Hades. The place where souls who cannot ascend to Heaven go. Not to be tormented, per se, but to reside either for eternity or until the time for their next incarnation draws nigh. That is, if a soul was meant to be reincarnated, which is not necessarily everyone's destiny. Although it has been mine. I've learned from my past-life errors, though, and try not to repeat the old mistakes.
But I will not speak of that here! Rather, I will mention what I know of the fates of certain of my family members who have passed on in this life...

First of all: after my mother died of diabetes, the same disease that would later claim the life of my grandfather, may they rest in peace, I had a series of dreams in which I saw her spending some time in Hell where she atoned for whatever sins she committed in life, which weren't many.
Many places where she walked sported beautiful gardens with all kinds of flowers, dotted by what looked like ancient columned ruins in meadows.
After proving herself ready, she ascended up to Heaven and joined God and His Angels. However, when my grandfather died I had a dream where he took longer to atone, because he had sinned more when he was alive. Although he was still a good man, but God sees the sins we cannot see. At any rate, his journey through Hell was darker and harsher. He lingered long in Purgatory, too, or rather the place people call that, before at last ascending to Heaven to be with my mother there.
His trip through Hell took him through caverns where gluttons were punished by being thrown into pits. The floors were covered in skulls, and a giant spider with the upper body of a woman came to feast upon the gluttons in horrible ways. At one point, my grandfather was seated at a table where he was served his favorite foods but could not eat even one of them. This was to punish him for gluttony, I was told, since in life he had overeaten quite a bit without thought of sharing the food with anyone else. So, I was surprised that the sin of gluttony is not the eating of the food, but the act of being selfish. So, in truth, it is selfishness not gluttony that leads to the punishments gluttons suffer when they go to Hell.
During my mother's time in Hell, I saw that my great-grandfather was there too. He had a very frightening punishment: being bound to a couch where two black wolves guarded him. My mother had that happen to her too, but only briefly and then she moved on from that particular part of Hell. His ghost sometimes haunts our home... where he died. My mother did not die at our home, but my grandfather did. Not that that is important to this discourse but the point is... souls in Hell can contact and watch over the living just like those in Heaven can. Which also is not what most Christians commonly believe is possible there. Also, when they were both bound, my mother and my great-grandfather who my mother was close to when he was alive, they carried on normal even happy conversations about the old days, totally and entirely oblivious to their terrible surroundings.
This showed me that if you were not evil, you would not even feel your torments in Hell should you have to suffer any at all. Thusly, the powers of Hell are merciful, strangely enough, from all that I have seen. What does this actually mean?

Well, it means going up or down isn't necessarily a bad thing, nor the most final of things. It is one stage of a journey we all must travel upon. :)
And, if Hell is not as eternal as they say, but rather transitionary, we have as much chances to achieve salvation beyond, as we do in this world. Which, to me, is a great comfort to know. - Peace!

We come into the physical realm and experience gravity right off the bat. We come from purfectness to experience imperfection. That would seem initially to be like descent.

However, as we move through a lifetime, I believe we ascend. The process of passing through the human experience, remembering our wholeness and reaching the pinnacle of a lifetime of learning/remembering about love would certainly seem like ascent.

Also the gathering of knowledge that accumulates within each individual, as well as each generation.

Ascent indeed!

shouldn't that be: "purrrrrfectness" after all if were not cat like - lifes not worth living -