Is this artifact a leonardo painting or the actual burial cloth of christ?

Scientist's Brought a Piece of What was thought to be the Shroud to the UofA and the Carbon Dating was Way Off!

Its a hoax

To those that believe, it is real, to the others it really just doesn't matter.

A agree. It is a hoax.

It is a hoax, however the Shroud of Cleveland is the real thing.

They've carbon dated a couple pieces of it and they were off by hundreds of years from when Jesus was around.

I saw several documentaries about the Shroud of Turin over the years. The most informative one said that the carbon dating *proved* that it came from some time during either the Dark Ages or the early Medieval period, which is WAY off for it to be the burial shroud of Jesus. The blood tests on the shroud showed that the blood was human, and that someone had to have died while in the cloth. Since Jesus would have been dead *before* he was buried, this clearly could not have belonged to Him, especially when coupled with other evidence.

The creepiest part is this: some wacko during the Dark Ages or Middle Ages *killed* someone in that cloth to create the hoaxed shroud. But, given the fact that back then they even robbed graves to get fingerbones so they could pawn them off as the fingerbone of "Insert Saint's Name Here", I do not at all find it surprising. Perhaps I'm a little mad but I can't help but chuckle whenever I see people bend down to kiss the Shroud, now that I know it is a fake. I suppose sometimes it is true that blind faith can blind people to the greater truth. It is better to question, learn, experience, and grow! That's what I say, anyway.

I think it's real.

Hoax, and I'm pretty sure it predates Leonardo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sFmAQcekbY



this is really neat, u decide

The shroud is not the only artifact that the Church is scrambling to invent or recover in their effort to hold together the fabrication and fraud their religion is based upon. At least that is my opinion.

Is it really important?

Or will it (has it) taken away from the truth of the message?

Is what was (possibly) worn by a person as important (in this time) as the words spoken by that person.

Much ado about nothing (imho).

Not true in my case. I detest fraud and commend those people who work to expose it.

The world if full of lies. It is time for the truth.

The truth is important.

I read about the carbon dating thing. after they scrubbed off the accumulated grime and dirt and retested it, it came out a lot closer to the time of Jesus

also pollens found embedded in the shroud were found to be native to the Jerusalem area

People want to focus on a piece of cloth and on proving this correct or that invalid.

"Heaven" forbid anyone threaten someone's ideas and upset the modus operandi.

If it could have been possible to unearth a piece of JC's excrement, harebrained individuals would be jumping at the chance to glorify and argue over it ad nauseam.

D'oh!

Before I believe anything about the carbon dating results of the shroud you will have to site your sources.

Who are "they?"

What are your scientific unbiased sources?

people on this web site don't seem to understand the difference between discussion and debating

do your own research. I mentioned something I read for the purpose of discussion. Not for the purpose of having to defend any assertations

as long as you feel the need to debate every comment you'll never get any discussion. just a lot of competition to score points

Truly, too much focus is placed on objects in a religion that espouses to be against idol worship.

Here is a list of the most obvious cases:

1. The Shroud of Turin (Of which we've spoken.)
2. The Holy Grail
3. The Ark of the Covenant
4. The Spear of Destiny
5. The Wood from the True Cross
6. Noah's Ark
7. Assorted body parts of Saints
8. The Weeping Virigin Mary Statue
9. The Emerald of Lucifer
10. The Crown of Thorns

And, I daresay... if they could find a fossilized Apple Core from the Garden of Eden, someone would call that a sacred relic as well and enshrine it.

Regarding these objects...

1. We've already discussed the Shroud quite a bit so we should discuss a little these other relics.

2. The Holy Grail. Ah, my goodness! Some say it is a plain cup, others say it is an ornate goblet whilst still others claim it is an annointing jar.
And then we have the bloodline theory which holds to it either being Mary Magdalene, her remains or her sarcophagus, or a bloodline involving her and Jesus having had children and descendants. All of that was covered in the DaVinci Code, and over the centuries everyone from the Knights Templar to treasure hunters & archeologists have claimed it was one of these many, many different things. And it all began a man drinking from a cup and having had a devoted woman in his life! Lol! :D

3. The Ark of the Convenant. Some claim it is in a temple in Ethiopea, whilst others say it was utterly destroyed by the Babylonians. Almost all accounts say it should not be touched, but none say why. It all began with Moses placing the ten commandment tablets into an ornate wooden chest plated with gold and crafted in an Egyptian style.
Somehow, over the centuries, this unassuming box became a terrible weapon. Many theories exist! Some say the ark was rigged to conduct electric currents... others claim it was designed so that the Cherubim on the ark functioned as lighting rods. And still other theories (the most recent) say the ark contained far more than just the Ten Commandments... but that it had also contained radioactive material, either in the form of a meteorite, or somthing of similar properties. Since by the look of it, the thing is dangerous if it does exist, perhaps it should remain a mystery? That, or call in the biohazard division when and if they do find it. Just to be safe! ;)

4. The Spear of Destiny. When the Roman centurion Longinus pierced Jesus' side with his lance to see if JC was alive, I'll bet he didn't reckon on people later claiming that whomever possessed the spear could not be defeated in battle! But during the second world war, that was exactly what the Nazis and the Thule Society believed. They also went in search of the Holy Grail and the Ark of the Covenant. According to some historical record or another, they never found the ark, but they did find a fake Holy Grail (a green glass cup) that got destroyed during the liberation of the country of France, and they did find the Spear, the head of which they kept, thinking it would bring them victory. It goes to show how wrong it was to assume that since Hitler's disastrous war with Russia spelled the beginning of the end for the myth of the "unbeatable" Nazi war machine. ;)
Today, scholars and archeologists spend a great deal of time looking the speardhead over. While it is the real deal, it's not supernatural at all.

5. The Wood from the True Cross. The dumbest one of all these relics, primarily because it's just a lousy piece of old, rotten wood! Contantine, at the height of his reign over Constantinople, sent his mother off in search of the True Cross. She came back with a splinter of wood that they later enshrined. No one has ever examined the splinter, so honestly it could have come from any tree in any part of the world. And even it did come from the cross, log, stake, or tree that Jesus died on so what? It is still only a splinter of old wood!

6. Noah's Ark. What would there be to find? Some only planks of rotten wood that suffered from a lot of water damage and wear and tear? Honestly! And why wouldn't Noah and his family scrap it and use the wood to build new homes? They probably did exactly that, since they seemed like *very* practical people! So, Noah's Ark is a lost cause.

7. Relics of Saints. The head of this saint or the fingerbone of that saint. So much reverence for dead corpses makes a mockery of a religion whose claim is to revere life and love, not death and the dead! I cannot imagine how many must be fakes, since none of them have ever been examined by professionals. It boggles the mind completely. Go figure! The Church condemned the Celts for keeping skulls enshrined in their sacred places, but the Church does the identical same thing. If Jesus was alive today, He would say that is the behavior of hypocrites, not true believers in Him.
He would also say to love one another, and that the place of the living is with the living, not preoccupied with the dead. So much for heads and fingerbones, hmmm? Such items are morbid things!

8. The Weeping Virgin Mary Statue. Water collects on porous statues, and when the temperature is at a humid level, water in the air collects similar. Porous statues will then "sweat" the water out, thus appearing to "sweat" or "cry". This is not a miracle, yet people believe it to be. It is just science at work in nature. Natural processes work just fine on their own. If you do belive that God created the Multiverse, then you should realize that He created it in a such a way that He won't need to do everything Himself. Ask yourself... if you were God, wouldn't you want to make things as easy on yourself as possible? God did, and so all those who think God is behind every lighting bolt and every turn of the weather... they are wrong. God doesn't need to run things that run on their own, and so not every natural thing is a miracle!

9. The Emerald of Lucifer. Some say that Lucifer wore a crown with an Emerald set into it. When Lucifer fell from Heaven to Earth, the crown was lost. According to the legend, it was destroyed and only the Emerald survived. People have made all manner of claims regarding this oddity. Some say it was set into the Holy Grail, whilst others claim it was made into a lens and used by Nero to look through whilst he watched Christians suffer under his tortures. It is a historical fact that Nero had such a lens, but it has never been found to verify if it was older than recorded history or of extraterrestrial origin. I think this is a case of several myths being joined together from one ancient truth. It is likely Nero's lens was destroyed over time, and since no one has ever found a definitive Holy Grail with an emereald in it of any kind, is likely to remain only a legend.
Personally, Emerald is my favorite gemstone. Does that make me in league with Lucifer? Hmmm... ;)

10. The Crown of Thorns. It amazes me how over the centuries since Jesus' crucifixion, people have produced this thorn or that thorn and said it came from the Crown of Thorns. Like the wood from the Cross itself, this is another item that is likely a scam. Thorns grow in Jerusalem, and ancient thorns can be found abundantly I'm sure. But unless you had a thorn with JC's blood on it, (and how could you prove it was his blood? It is not exactly on file with the FBI!) you could not even begin to figure out if it was real or fake.
Another unknown that will remain an unknown. I'll also throw in mention of the Nails from the Cross as a similar item. So many Jews were crucified by Rome during Jesus' lifetime that you would never be able to prove that any one specific nail came from His cross in particular. And, let's be truly honest! If Jesus came down... let's say in a big spaceship, to please the science-minded folks... if he came down like that tomorrow, and you could test his blood with an ancient artifact, what in that case would be the point? The man in right in front of you, and you are going to worry about an old rusty nail? Now that is just plain stupid! :D

I think that covers all of them. You can see why I don't consider relics important! Jesus preached a simple message: Love. How we've gone off on all these tagents over the centuries since, is beyond me! I'm not 100% Christian, but I do agree with a lot of what Jesus had to say. Not Church dogma, and not any filtered-through-preachers stuff, but the simple message that Love is the key to Heaven.

The problem is that to many people, what He had to say has become of a secondary consideration, compared with mystical relics and otherworldly legends. What a shame, such simplicity was lost!