Rev 13:16-18
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
NKJV

I can't figure out what you're saying here. What are you saying about Christ and the Cross? What are you refering to as far as blowing off what we're commanded to do? I need this reworded Miles and explained.

Did Satan put in the minds of people to choose a sinless man over a murderer?

The long explanation about the feast on page 2 is what we are commanded to do yet it is blown off or done away for say easter abd christmas which are no where in the scripture a good light.

Do you think when he gets here that he's going to be surprised? He knows everyone who has a cross on at this very moment - and WHY. It is the heart he examines - not the jewelry.

In Christianity, the swastika is sometimes used as a hooked version of the Christian Cross, the symbol of Christ's victory over death. Some Christian churches built in the Romanesque and Gothic eras are decorated with swastikas, carrying over earlier Roman designs. Swastikas are prominently displayed in a mosaic in the St. Sophia church of Kiev, Ukraine dating from the 12th century. They also appear as a repeating ornamental motif on a tomb in the Basilica of St. Ambrose in Milan. A proposed direct link between it and a swastika floor mosaic in the Cathedral of Our Lady of Amiens, which was built on top of a pagan site at Amiens, France in the 1200s, is considered unlikely. The stole worn by a priest in the 1445 painting of the Seven Sacraments by Roger van der Weyden presents the swastika form simply as one way of depicting the cross. Swastikas also appear on the vestments on the effigy of Bishop William Edington (d.1366) in Winchester Cathedral.

C'mon my friend, read!!

The Beast’s spirit-inspired Image itself is able to cause as many as do not worship the Image of the Beast to be killed. The Jewish synagogues enforced submission to the Emperor. In- deed, their leaders’ charge against Christ Himself was that He was a rival to the all-embracing authority of Caesar (John 19:12-15). Similarly, they organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, the leaders of the synagogues “forbidding all dealings with the excommuni- cate,”zo and going so far as to put them to death. And he causes all, (note the six categories) the small and great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand, or on their fore- head, and he provides that no one should be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the Beast or the number of his name.

The Book of Acts is studded with incidents of organized Jewish persecution of the Church (Acts 4:1-3, 15-18; 5:17-18, 27-33, 40; 6:8-15; 7:51-60; 9:23, 29; 13:45-50; 14:2-5; 17:5-8, 13; 18:17; 20:3; 22:22-23; 23:12, 20-21; 24:27; 26:21; 28:17-29; cf. 1 Thess. 2:14-16). All of this ultimately served the interests of Caesar against Christ and the Church; and the “mark of the Beast,” of course, is the Satanic parody of the “seal of God” on the foreheads and hands of the righteous (3:12; 7:2-4; 14:1), the mark of wholehearted obedience to the Law in thought and deed (Deut. 6:6-8), the mark of blessing and protection (Ezek. 9:4-6), the sign that one is HOLY TO THE LORD (cf. Ex. 28:36).

Israel has rejected Christ, and is “marked” with the seal of Rome’s total lordship; she has given her allegiance to Caesar, and is obedient to his rule and law. >>Israel chose to be saved by the pagan state,<< and persecuted those who sought salvation in Christ. The New Testament gives abundant testimony of this fact. The Jewish hierarchy was involved in a massive, organized attempt to destroy the Church by both deceit and persecution. In pursuit of this diabolical goal, they united in a conspiracy with the Roman government against Christianity. Some of them were able to perform miracles in the service of Satan. All this is ex- actly what is told us of the Beast from the Land. The False Prophet of Revelation represents none other than the leadership of apostate Israel, who rejected Christ and worshiped the Beast. There is an interesting reversal of imagery in the text. The Book of Job has prepared us for St. John’s prophecy, for it too tells us of a Land Beast (Behemoth, Job 40:15-24) and a Sea Beast (Leviathan, Job 41:1-34). In the Greek Old Testament which the early Church used, the Hebrew word Behemoth is translated TE.rion, the same word St. John uses for Beast; and Leviathan is translated Drak6n (Dragon). But St. John’s visions expand on Job’s descriptions of these dinosaurs, and the order of their appearance is reversed. Job first saw the Behemoth (Job 40), then Leviathan (Job 41), and finally God (Job 42). In Reve- lation, St. John shows us the demonic reverse of this pattern: 342

He sees you when you're sleeping...
He knows when you're awake...
He knows if you've been good or bad...
So, be good for goodness sake!

I do not see the whole world being decieved. I do not see the 2 witnesses who go out and nothing can touch them. Anything that comes against the for 3 1/2 years they will destroy. I do not see them being killed and being put up for display for the whole world to see and then rising to Heaven 3 1/2 days later.

They missed a tone of things that must happen. I read it all closely Tribo..Shalom...Miles

They were not writing as messengers of god Miles they were jewish romans in the military, they recorded what they saw and heard and did no more - how could they? but to say this did not happen is no better than me saying it did correct? you have no proof nor do i - we were not witnesses to all that took place then, that doesn't mean i'm wrong - nor does it prove your correct. it only proves we have a difference of oinion that exist because we have no further evidence to go by.

Beside' s i know i'm correct!!!

ole your an ole monk that is 2 old to change his ways Miles

Yes maybe so but i get pleasure debating with you my friend - i wish all debates here were as rewarding and free from bad feelings as ours -

I will work on rebuilding the library of alexandria so we can have coffee and resume our discussions -

now i could go for that. At least for what is claimed to have been thier

believe me if there is a heaven on earth - that would be mine!!

Thats where it will be.. The meek inherit the earth. Red wine probally will be the main source of alcohol

This may be helpful my friend.::


8-10 The dead bodies of the Old Covenant Witnesses, “from righteous Abel to Zechariah” (Matt. 23:35) lie metaphorically in the street of the Great City which Spiritually [i.e., by the revela- tion of the Holy Spirit] is called Sodom and Egypt. This City is, of course, Jerusalem; St. John explains that it is where also their Lord was crucified (on Israel as Sodom, see Deut. 29:22-28; 32:32; Isa. 1:10, 21; 3:9; Jer. 23:14; Ezek. 16:46).

Commentators are generally unable to find Bible references comparing Israel (or Jerusalem) to Egypt, but this is the old problem of not being able to see the forest for the trees. For the proof is contained in the whole message of the New Testament. Jesus is constantly re- garded as the new Moses (Acts 3:20-23; Heb. 3-4), the new Israel (Matt. 2:15), the new Temple (John 1:14; 2:19-21), and in fact a living recapitulation/transcendence of the entire history of the Exodus (cf. 1 Cor. 10:1-4).14 On the Mount of Transfigura- tion (Luke 9:31), He spoke with Moses and Elijah (another link with this passage), calling His coming death and resurrection in Jerusalem an “Exodus” (the Greek word is exodon).

Following from all this is the language of Revelation itself, which speaks of the Egyptian plagues being poured out upon Israel (8:6-12; 16:2-12). The war of the Witnesses with apostate Israel and the pagan states is described in the same terms as the original Exodus from Egypt (cf. also the Cloud and the pillar of fire in 10: 1). Jerusalem, the once-holy, now apostate city, has become pagan and perverse, an oppressor of the true Covenant people, joining with the Beast in attacking and killing them. It is Jeru- salem that is guilty of the blood of the Old Covenant Witnesses; she is, par excellence, the killer of prophets (Matt. 21:33-43; 23:34-38).

In fact, said Jesus, “it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem” (Luke 13:33). With the death of the Witnesses, their voice of condemnation is silenced; and now those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations regard the Church itself as dead, openly displaying their contempt for God’s people, whose dead bodies lie unburied in the street, under an apparent curse, for they will 14. 11:8-10 not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb (cf. 1 Kings 13:20-22; Jer. 8:1-2; 14:16; 16:3-4). The desire for insertion into the Promised Land in death was a central concern to the faithful Witnesses of the Old Covenant, as a pledge of their future resurrection (Gen. 23; 47:29-31; 49:28-33; 50:1-14, 24-26; Ex. 13:19; Josh. 24:32; 1 Sam. 31:7-13; Acts 7:15-16; Heb. 11:22).

The oppression of the Kingdom of priests by the heathen was often expressed in these terms: O God, the nations have invaded Thine inheritance; They have defiled Thy holy Temple; They have laid Jerusalem in ruins. They have given the dead bodies of Thy servants for food to the birds of the heavens, The flesh of Thy godly ones to the beasts of the earth. They have poured out their blood like water round about Jerusalem; And there was no one to bury them. (Ps. 79:1-3) The irony, however, is that it is now those who dwell on the Land – the Jews themselves (cf. 3:10) – who join with the heathen nations in oppressing the righteous.

The apostates of Israel rejoice and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the Land (cf. Herod’s party, during which John was imprisoned and then beheaded: Matt. 14:3-12). The price of the world’s peace was the annihilation of the prophetic Witness; Israel and the heathen world united in their evil gloating at the destruction of the prophets, whose faithful double witness had tormented the disobedient with conviction of sin, driving them to commit murder (cf. Gen. 4:3-8; 1 John 3:11-12; Acts 7:54-60).

Natural enemies were reconciled to each other through their joint participation in the murder of the prophets. This was especially true in their murder of Christ: “Now Herod and Pilate became friends with one another that very day; for before they had been at enmity with each other” (Luke 23:12). At Christ’s death all manner of people rejoiced and mocked: the rulers, the priests, the competing religious factions, the Roman soldiers, the servants, the criminals; all joined in celebrating His death (cf. Matt. 27:27-31, 39-44; Mark 15:29-32; Luke 22:63-65; 23:8-12, 35-39); all sided with the Beast against the Lamb (John 282 19:15). The attempt to destroy the Witnesses seemed to be suc- cessful, not only in silencing individual prophets, but in abolishing the Testimony of the Covenant itself.

The progressive war against the Word reached its climax with the murder of Christ; this was the ultimate crime that brought on Jerusalem’s destruction. Moses had instructed the people of Israel about the coming Prophet, warning them that they would be cursed if they refused to listen to Him (Deut. 18:15-19);

The martyr Stephen quoted this prophecy (Acts 7:37), and concluded: You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who had previously an- nounced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become! (Acts 7:51-52)

For now, the persecutors are victorious, and rejoice for three and a half days. This is no more a literal period than the previous figures of 42 months and 1,260 days. As we have noted, “three and a half” represents a broken seven, a period of sadness and oppression.

In each section of Revelation, St. John’s figures harmonize with each other: The Seal-judgments are in ~ourth.s, the Trumpet-judgments are in thirds, and the numbers in chapters 11-13 correspond to three and a half (42 months and 1,260 days both equal three and a half years). St. John’s poetic symmetry continues this symbolism: The days during which the righteous are oppressed, their bodies abused, are a three-and-a- haif, a time of grief when the wicked are triumphant. Yet the evil time is brief, being limited to a mere three and a half days. Thus several lines of imagery converge here; and St. John has kept the period in general agreement with the three days of Christ’s descent into hell. In His death, the entire Covenant community and its Testimony lie dead in the streets of Jeru- salem, under the Curse. 11-12 After the three and a half days, the Witnesses are resurrected: The breath of life from God entered into them in the New Creation (cf. Gen. 2:7; Ezek. 37:1-14; John 20:22) and they stood on their feet (cf. Acts 7:55), causing terror and consternation to their enemies.

Great fear came upon those who were 11:13 beholding them (cf. Acts 2:43; 5:5; 19:17; contrast John 7:13; 12:42; 19:38; 20:19), and with good reason: Through the resurrection of Christ, the Church and her Testimony became un- stoppable. In union with Christ in His Ascension to glory (Eph. 2:6), they went up to heaven in the Cloud, and their enemies beheld them. 15

The Witnesses did not survive the persecutions; they died. But in Christ’s resurrection they rose to power and dominion that existed not by might, nor by power, but by God’s Spirit, the very breath of life from God. “We are not the lords of history and do not control its outcome, but we have assurance that there is a lord of history’ and he controls its outcome.

We need a theological interpretation of disaster, one that recognizes that God acts in such events as captivities, defeats, and crucifixions. The Bible can be interpreted as a string of God’s triumphs disguised as disasters.”

16 St. John draws an important parallel here that should not be missed, for it is close to the heart of the passage’s meaning. The ascension of the Witnesses is described in the same language as that of St. John’s own ascension: 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first Voice which I had heard, like a trumpet speaking with me, saying: Come up here. . . . 11:11-12 And after the three and a half days . . . they heard a loud Voice from heaven saying to them: Come up here. . . . The story of the Two Witnesses is therefore the story of the witnessing Church, which has received the divine command to Come up here and has ascended with Christ into the Cloud of heaven, to the Throne (Eph. 1:20-22; 2:6; Heb. 12:22-24): She now possesses an imperial grant to exercise rule over the ends of the earth, discipline the nations to the obedience of faith (Matt. 28:18-20; Rom. 1:5). 13-14 One of the results of Christ’s ascension, as He foretold, would be the crack of doom for apostate Israel.

This bears some similarity to Elijah’s experience, with the major difference that it was his Friend, and not his enemies, who saw his ascension (2 Kings 2:9-14).