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| Topic: Have faith in science | |
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We are talking about putting our faith in MAN who do these types of things is what im saying here. The Bible is no different. When you put your faith in the Bible you're putting your faith in the men who wrote it. Men who had agendas. They wanted to justify their wars and murdering sinners by claiming that their God told them to it! They wanted to justify keeping women as second class citizens by claiming that this was God's will. I have absolutely no reason at all to believe that the Bible was anything other than the invention of men who had adgendas. When I reject the Bible, I'm not rejecting God. I'm rejecting the men who wrote it as frauds! |
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I see the exquisite mathematical precision that the universe is built upon and I don't see how it couldn't have been arranged by someone pretty smart and powerful
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We have the strength, but do we use it? If i give you my number to call me in emergency, but you dont call me and you die? is it my fault? Simple example but gets to the point... His son could have and did have the option to have his father remove him from the cross. All he had to do was ask but he died on the cross, and you know the rest where are you comming up with these points abra? Any God who demands blood sacrifices before he can forgive sins deserves to be nailed to a pole. You dismiss the original stupidity of the God demanding blood sacrifices to pay for sins in the first place. If he designed creation with these stupid rules then he has no one but himself to blame for his situation. It's pretty simple Kalamzoo man. Either God made up these rules arbitrary or he HAD NO CHOICE! If he made these rules up aribitarily then he's stupid. If he had no choice then he's not all powerful and clearly he's being restrained by something even greater than him. Designing a creation where sin can only be forgiven via a blood sacrifice is nothing short of stupid. Period Amen. You expect me to believe that God is stupid? Clearly the biblical picture of God is a fraud. It's pure and simple. Why would you fight for such a stupid story to be true based entirely on faith? Do you want this story to be true? What if you discovered that it was a lie and that the real creator of this universe never had to send a son to die for your sins on a cross. Would you be dissapointed? Why do you want to believe in this story on FAITH? As far as I'm concerned, if you can't give me a reason to beleive it other than faith, then there's no reason why I should want to believe it. Why would I want to believe such a horrible story on FAITH alone? I tell you this,... Almost EVERY manmade myth has stories of men making blood sacrifices to their Gods. Yet they're gods all want something different so they can't posssible be all from the same God. Now I ask you,... What are the CHANCES that the real creator of this universe would just HAPPEN by pure accident to be appeased by blood sacrifices? Just by a freak accident God happens to want the very same things that men are known to make up superstitions about. I don't believe that God ever asked anyone for a blood sacrifice. Now why would I want to have FAITH that he would? If I'm going to have FAITH in something I'd rather have FAITH that the bible isn't true! Woudln't you? Wouldn't you rather know that it wasn't necessary for God to sacrifice himself for you arrogant disobedience? Why would you want to place your FAITH in a story that says that you're guilty of such a thing? Why do you want that to be true? What is a BLOOD sacrifice? look into it ABRA, is eating a Dog bad? In America it is frowned upon as horrid yet is there much difference in a dog vs a cow? Societal changes, which have changed much in 2008 years Abra im disapointed in that comment, little thought there. But then again Man made up these rules lol, awful farfetched dont you think? Blood is sacred and due to society its somthing im not too comfortable with however "only the strongest survived" applied back then which generally required injured people to stay behind in a group and eventually die, would i do that to my own family no, but it happened. Society changes You dont want to believe, in fear of actually believing, i see that just in your posts, look at them, i could answer each question, most likely not to your liking but again what does it solve? I will answer 1 part though "What if you discovered that it was a lie and that the real creator of this universe never had to send a son to die for your sins on a cross. " Abra this is faith, faith to the point under which no circumstance is this possible to me, without visual seeing, God is in existance to me, through my heart, and me personally, i have seen answers to my questions though time, visually there. That question is not possible, Like to you finding that you arnt real. This is faith Abra. |
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We are talking about putting our faith in MAN who do these types of things is what im saying here. The Bible is no different. When you put your faith in the Bible you're putting your faith in the men who wrote it. Men who had agendas. They wanted to justify their wars and murdering sinners by claiming that their God told them to it! They wanted to justify keeping women as second class citizens by claiming that this was God's will. I have absolutely no reason at all to believe that the Bible was anything other than the invention of men who had adgendas. When I reject the Bible, I'm not rejecting God. I'm rejecting the men who wrote it as frauds! Abra i dont put my faith in the Bible, i put all my faith in God, not the bible... Hear me out and read this 2 or 3 times.... I believe in God, and because i believe in him, not because i read the bible. I believe in him because of my experiences with him, not because the bible is in existance... But becasue i believe in God i follow the bible as guidence at times. Granted there are many points in the bible i dont understand, i realize no one in this world knows everything or much... WE want to know but some things are beyond us, space for instance.. |
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I see the exquisite mathematical precision that the universe is built upon and I don't see how it couldn't have been arranged by someone pretty smart and powerful (again just bouncing off your post) I tend to agree with this point of view somewhat, only not necessarily with certainty. First off, even if I make this conclusion, that's not going to send me running off to buy a Bible. I don't see the God of the Bible being smart enough to design this universe to be perfectly honest with you. I can't see the creator of this universe demanding blood sacrifices to make atonments for sin. I don't see that as being 'smart' on any level. So from the point of view, then I would reject the Biblical picture of God as not being smart enough to have created this universe. Moreover, there are other philosophies to consider! Pantheism fits this picture perfectly. There's no reason why we can't be the creator of this universe. No reason at all. Moreover, the argument ends up being empty if you just take it one step further. If you conclude that the universe is to complex to have happened by accident, then wouldn't you need to apply that same logic to any creator it might have had? If the universe needed a designer. Then why wouldn't the designer need a designer, etc., ad infinitum. It doesn't solve a thing. And like I say, it certainly isn't going to send me running to worship Mediterranean folklore! Pantheism is MUCH MORE INTELLIGENT! If I'm looking for an intelligent God I'd be more attracted to pantheism. |
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Intellegence goes only as far as your understanding, blood sacrifices dont make sence, because blood to you holds no significance....
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Abra i dont put my faith in the Bible, i put all my faith in God, not the bible... Hear me out and read this 2 or 3 times.... I believe in God, and because i believe in him, not because i read the bible. I believe in him because of my experiences with him, not because the bible is in existance... But becasue i believe in God i follow the bible as guidence at times. Granted there are many points in the bible i dont understand, i realize no one in this world knows everything or much... WE want to know but some things are beyond us, space for instance.. I needed to read this once. I understand exactly where you are coming from. I don't deny the existence of God. You say that you know God exists from your experiences with God. Fine. But how can you know that the God you have experience with is the same God that is described by the Bible? This is where so many people make a huge mistake. They experience spirituality and then feel like this has something to do with the Bible. But unless you know with absolute certainty that there is a connection you should be careful about proclaiming one. When you support any organized religion that's what you are supporting! Think about it. |
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But how can you know that the God you have experience with is the same God that is described by the Bible? This is where so many people make a huge mistake. They experience spirituality and then feel like this has something to do with the Bible. But unless you know with absolute certainty that there is a connection you should be careful about proclaiming one. When you support any organized religion that's what you are supporting! Think about it. This question is the line between the Christian Atheist, the unknown.. How do we. Religion as i have always said is personal, and is unique to each person, granted only 1 religions exists. what i do know with the absolute certainty and how i have lived my life and how God has influenced it, i know, its unique. Christanity throught the bible some parts i may never understand but, i dont understand most quantum physics and i cant even speak spanish so not understanding the enitre bible is no suprise. What i do understand though is in the bible society must be wiped clean and a complete open mind must be present to understand the bible. Blood sacrifices dont make sence, maybe not right for society, which in time thats why it changed but killing a bug is no different than killing a cow if thought about. Purpose of animals was not to deomesticate but for food for us. This is why i stick with christianity, because it isnt very inviting. Like the toughest person i have ever met never started fights, would even back down before fighting not out of fear but because he had to prove nothing. God has nothing to prove. Religion isnt suppose to say hey thats easy ill do that. It requires change but to be i see this as somthing i want to do, for God and for me. You may see this as different. All other religions have perks it seems to invite you, which is the person in highschool who always is in fights, to prove themselves. thats why i am where i am at in my young life =) |
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All other religions have perks it seems to invite you, which is the person in highschool who always is in fights, to prove themselves. Well, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by the above quote. I don't back any particular religion. I do often suggest that pantheistic philosophies make the most sense to me. But I wouldn't back a dogmatic version of one. In regard to a religion that seems to be trying to 'prove itself' like the kid in highschool, it seems to that Christianity (as an organized religion) fits that bill pretty well. Maybe not necessarily trying to 'prove' itself, but more like trying to 'push' its moral values onto others like its the school bully. That's just how I see it as an organized religion. I wouldn't have any problem with it at all if everyone just treated it like a personal belief system and didn't try to ram it onto society in general. That's when it crosses the line from being a personal belief system into becoming a political event. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sat 09/27/08 01:26 AM
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I found another cause for stoning. For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 Um okay, if Im understanding this cryptic wording, if this broad doesn't have a hymen, they are going to stone her to death. Not all virgins have hymens to begin with and some have them but they rupture prior to actual intercourse. So I wonder how many girls were murdered over the ages simply because they didnt bleed a little after penetration or because some stupid elder could not find evidence of an intact hymen.   
This is the origional quote taken from scripture. Keep reading... Yeah so, you said we were "going to discuss this" when I found the quote. You do realize this is but one cause for stoning that I found? Do you care to enlighten us with your explanation or no? |
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You are quite right in your assumption. Unfortunately assumptions have created wars 
Actually I am pretty sure that most wars have had their roots in religion. This statement is factual. Shall I start posting the historical evidence to illustrate why this is based in reality? |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sat 09/27/08 02:07 AM
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You see what im getting at though? In all honesty who is doing that acts, God or People? You may claim that these people did these acts in Gods name but thats not even a credible arguement in a real world dicsussion. Reading the bible it will state that many people who do evil will do evil in his name yet are not of him.... Yeah I see exactly what you are getting at. You are attempting to not take any responsibility for the hatred espoused in this bible who was supposedly written by men who were "divinely inspired" in some capacity. People threw the actual stones and committed these unthinkable crimes because they felt obliged to based on the scripture. What I quoted a couple pages back was a direct cause for stoning detailed in the bible. If you look over this thread I think I posted about 4-5 others. Some of them were comical I will admit but not this one. Im sorry sir but I think my argument is pretty dam credible. These followers of Christendom felt justified in committing these atrocities. Can they claim like it says in the bible to be men of God? Can men lie? People who hate God will claim to follow in his footsteps and actually be evil people... Charles Manson a man of God eh? But you are consistently ignoring the fact that all of these reasons for stoning I took directly FROM THE SCRIPTURE. Do you not fully understand that or what? You act like I am making it all up. The men who wrote the bible claimed to be "divinely inspired" in some respect. Another invented premise. Anyone can claim they are divinely inspired to do something. Charles Manson in fact was a severely sociopathic young man when he initiated his criminal career. Sociopaths have often been linked with religious cults interestingly enough. Besides, if Manson had wanted to convert (not sure if he was religious prior to the Tate/Folger murders) then Im sure he would have been quite capable of doing that while he was in protective custody in San Quentin. Relevance? |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sat 09/27/08 01:33 AM
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You WANT ME? to believe that they are telling the truth, when people on a daily basis get paid off from drug companies to hide certain information? You're confusing science with tecnnology and business. How do scientists get paid, theyre not volunteers remember this!!!!!!! THERES NO MONEY IN A CURE =) You're confusing scientists with technologists, but it's no wonder since people abuse these terms all the time even in industry. So you're not alone in that. But just so you know, you're pointing fingers in the wrong directions. Abra Scientists make money through what..... im making sence here... So do scientists need to perform their research for free in order to be respected and have their findings be considered legitimate? Do you get paid for the work you do (assuming you work)? Shouldn't these evangelical Christian leaders not get paid then if you want to level the playing field in some respect? Shouldn't they refrain from stealing thousands of dollars each year from elderly people and those that are easily manipulated and conned because they seek some kind of emotional support from these fraudulent enterprises? Like I said, anyone can claim they were "divinely inspired". |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sat 09/27/08 01:49 AM
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You are quite right in your assumption. Unfortunately assumptions have created wars
Actually I am pretty sure that most wars have had their roots in religion. Acutally it is money and power..... Something traditionally held almost exclusively by religion(s) Once again, factual statement. And when Christianity was new on the scene (it was clearly predated by Paganism for thousands of years) its leaders certainly had no problem with gaining wealth through violence and tactics of intimidation. I realize your pat answer to that is "men are evil, god isn't." Well you tell me what difference that makes to these thousands of people who were murdered, tortured, imprisoned and robbed over the centuries by those who presumed to follow the Christian faith. It wont make a hell of a lot of difference to them. |
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I found another cause for stoning. For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 Um okay, if Im understanding this cryptic wording, if this broad doesn't have a hymen, they are going to stone her to death. Not all virgins have hymens to begin with and some have them but they rupture prior to actual intercourse. So I wonder how many girls were murdered over the ages simply because they didnt bleed a little after penetration or because some stupid elder could not find evidence of an intact hymen.
This is the origional quote taken from scripture. Keep reading... Yeah so, you said we were "going to discuss this" when I found the quote. You do realize this is but one cause for stoning that I found? Do you care to enlighten us with your explanation or no? If you keep reading and finish out the chapter we can then discuss. |
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So do scientists need to perform their research for free in order to be respected and have their findings be considered legitimate? Do you get paid for the work you do (assuming you work)? Shouldn't these evangelical Christian leaders not get paid then if you want to level the playing field in some respect? Shouldn't they refrain from stealing thousands of dollars each year from elderly people and those that are easily manipulated and conned because they seek some kind of emotional support from these fraudulent enterprises? Like I said, anyone can claim they were "divinely inspired". They dont nowadays, most get put on a team or group and recieve money through people who fund them, generally the money recieved is influenced. Im saying anyman can be corrupt or business for that matter, you seem to want to point fingers however, well i hope that helps you in life. You clearly understand through that this applies to all people and business not just divinely inspired people like you say. |
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I found another cause for stoning. For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 Um okay, if Im understanding this cryptic wording, if this broad doesn't have a hymen, they are going to stone her to death. Not all virgins have hymens to begin with and some have them but they rupture prior to actual intercourse. So I wonder how many girls were murdered over the ages simply because they didnt bleed a little after penetration or because some stupid elder could not find evidence of an intact hymen.
This is the origional quote taken from scripture. Keep reading... Yeah so, you said we were "going to discuss this" when I found the quote. You do realize this is but one cause for stoning that I found? Do you care to enlighten us with your explanation or no? If you keep reading and finish out the chapter we can then discuss. Okay, here is the entire passage. If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. Okay sir, it would appear that if this guy is simply an ass and is claiming this girl who was betrothed to him is not in fact a virgin but her parents are capable of substantiating that she is, then the only consequence he will face is that these elders "chastise him." Now as mentioned not all women have hymens. Even if a female has a hymen, it is possible to rupture it prior to intercourse which means there will be no blood post penetration. So presumably, if there is no blood and the parents can not prove to the husband's satisfaction (and these city elders) that the young woman is indeed a virgin, that's it then. They are being granted permission to take her out and let ALL of the men of the town stone her to death. They are doing this based on the fact that she is a "whore." Your turn. |
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I see the exquisite mathematical precision that the universe is built upon and I don't see how it couldn't have been arranged by someone pretty smart and powerful (again just bouncing off your post) I tend to agree with this point of view somewhat, only not necessarily with certainty. First off, even if I make this conclusion, that's not going to send me running off to buy a Bible. I don't see the God of the Bible being smart enough to design this universe to be perfectly honest with you. I can't see the creator of this universe demanding blood sacrifices to make atonments for sin. I don't see that as being 'smart' on any level. So from the point of view, then I would reject the Biblical picture of God as not being smart enough to have created this universe. Moreover, there are other philosophies to consider! Pantheism fits this picture perfectly. There's no reason why we can't be the creator of this universe. No reason at all. Moreover, the argument ends up being empty if you just take it one step further. If you conclude that the universe is to complex to have happened by accident, then wouldn't you need to apply that same logic to any creator it might have had? If the universe needed a designer. Then why wouldn't the designer need a designer, etc., ad infinitum. It doesn't solve a thing. And like I say, it certainly isn't going to send me running to worship Mediterranean folklore! Pantheism is MUCH MORE INTELLIGENT! If I'm looking for an intelligent God I'd be more attracted to pantheism. my grandfather was a Methodist preacher so I grew up under that doctrine but he said it to me this way: God is like the sun. You can't look at the sun without burning your eyes But you can see a reflection of the sun in any old oil slick mud puddle and all religions are oil slick mud puddles that seems to sit pretty well with me |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sat 09/27/08 09:23 AM
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So do scientists need to perform their research for free in order to be respected and have their findings be considered legitimate? Do you get paid for the work you do (assuming you work)? Shouldn't these evangelical Christian leaders not get paid then if you want to level the playing field in some respect? Shouldn't they refrain from stealing thousands of dollars each year from elderly people and those that are easily manipulated and conned because they seek some kind of emotional support from these fraudulent enterprises? Like I said, anyone can claim they were "divinely inspired". They dont nowadays, most get put on a team or group and recieve money through people who fund them, generally the money recieved is influenced. Im saying anyman can be corrupt or business for that matter, you seem to want to point fingers however, well i hope that helps you in life. You clearly understand through that this applies to all people and business not just divinely inspired people like you say. Well what do you want exactly? You are the one pointing fingers at the scientists (of which you clearly dont understand the difference between a scientist and a technologist) If I attend school for several years at MIT or Stanford in order to become a scientist and conduct research in my field of choice, am I not entitled to be compensated for my time and efforts? What the hell? I am telling you that if you are going to set that requirement than you clearly need to substantiate the reason why you would make such an absurd claim. |
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Your so wrong eljay, im not even going to go into it. I will say one and only one thing that blows your argument out of the water . . . . When we look at the results if it where 50/50 then we would see that they match the other fields of study only 50% of the time . . . . So when the tests are done accurately why do we then see it match up to the same degree of accuracy . . . Instead we see pretty functions which graph nicely . . and makes sense. You sir are not correct. Once again you fail to understand data analysis. I think its time for me to go study so have fun all. Go back and look over the data on how long it takes a readioactive isotope to change, and the accuracy of predicting when, and at what time intervals the changes occur. Absolute conjecture. However, science claims this doesn't matter. Ummm.. okay. Oh, yeah, and despite the fact that there is no emperical evidence to aqssure the test controls establish two different metiors as having been created at the same time period (an established criteria for the reliability of the experiment), the validity is established because the graph appears consistent. Ummm... okay. If I had offered conjecture like this in my advanced abstract calculus class - I would have flunked it. It matters not to me if you think I'm wrong and you want to invest yourself in this stuff. Just be weary of calling anyone a "blind follower of myths" I'm not saying I reject these theories - I just wouldn't bet a nickel on their validity until they can demonstrate controls that are only a hundred years old in theory to support an occurance that has lasted 4.5 billion years. Sorry - I don't buy it. That would be like asking a contol group of 5 Packer fans who the best qusarterback in the NFL is, and having the response be bret Favre - then claiming him as the best quarterback in the history of the NFL. It may be true - but not based on the experiment. |
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