Hey, thanks to you, this has been one of the best threads ever for me.




From those answers I gather you're postulating a system wherein the the cause->effect cycle can go either way between physical and non-physical - in some cases non-physical is cause and physical is effect, and in other cases physical is cause and non-physical is effect. So at this point I feel it necessary to express my own view in order to avoid starting down a path now and having to backtrace later.

I don't see the cause->effect cycle as ever going from physical to non-physical. If I might construct another analogy where the non-physical/physical relationship is similar to the animate(living things)/inanimate(non-living things) relationship - Animate/Living things have self-determinism whereas Inanimate/Non-Living things do not. That could also be stated as Animate things can be "cause" but inanimate things can only be "effect".

Extending that analogy leads to a much more accurate wording for what I've been intending when I use the term non-physical: "That which has the ability to make self-determined choices". (Note that self-determinism allows for the choice to act as effect. Whereas without self-determinism, there can only be effect and never cause.)

All of this could lead to equating non-physical with "god". Well, in the sense that non-physical is always cause and never effect (i.e. "Prime Cause"), that could be thought of as true.

But they way I think of it is as the difference between animate and inanimate. Essentially the non-physical is "life" and the physical is "non-living".



Well, I started in on that just to clarify a point about my view of non-physical, but I seem to have gone on to explain the very foundation of my own belief system. So I guess I'll summarize: "life" = "cause" = "self-determined choice" = "non-physical". That concept is "the absolute" in my belief system. Everything in my belief system is founded on that concept.

"I don't think we are morally any different from monkey. We're just capable of pulling off more complex premediated crimes"

Abracadabra


Thats classic. Thats one of the coolest quotes Ive heard in years. Im gonna steal it and find a way to throw it into casual conversation if you dont mind Abra.

Abra;

Like I said, I don't deny you your right to disbelieve it - I just prefer that when you state what the bible ays, that you get it right. That's all.

The story of Adam and Eve merely states that because they took of the fruit of the "Tree" that they would surely die. It doesn't even imply that they are the root cause of all death. While I can see that conclusion being drawn, surely even you can see that it is a subjective one. What remains as an absolute in this though - is the one truth we can't disagree on.

We're all gonna die. It remains unclear that death would have been a part of existance on this planet had Adam & Eve not disobeyed. In terms of the text that is.

I don't need the bible to discern whether or not there is sin in this world. Or even that there is sin in my life. A concept I determine as "falling short of absolute truth". This is not to say that everyone is "evil" - just that - when measured up to God - who I would think must be good to a point of absolute - man falls short. The nicest person in the world, at one time or another, is going to fall short. Either through commision of an act, or omission.
If this 'falling short' means I am no longer capable of spending eternity with absolute good, and through the act of Christ on the cross - I recieve redemption, I don't see this as being a far-fetched concept. But that's the way I see life, and the experiences I've had with it, and witnessing the experiences of others. It is the most viable concept I've come across thus fat in my life, and I've investigated numerous theoretical concepts from the New Age - through legalistic christian Cults. with many stops along the way. This is not to say I don't ask the same questions you do, or even think that some of your observations aren't valid. I just don't see them as conclusive as you do to defying the existance of a biblical Trinity.

It doesn't puzzle me that you need more to invest your faith into the biblical concepts. By now, i know your back story pretty well, and the depth of your disbelief. What does puzzle me is how it is you don't understand why I don't reject the bible and the concepts therein. You tend to draw examples from the behavior of others and their presumptuous interpretations of the bible - rather than an extensive examiniation of the text itself. I could never accept that as valid. That would be sitting in the sermons of the Cult I was part of all over again - in quiet disagreement. Just not convincing.

Anyway - belief in the "story" - as it were, comes through reinforcement of life experience. Having rejected the bible for so many years in my youth - I finally decided to examine it without bias, and saw a different picture from what the "masses" and all of those crying fowl were attempting to tell me, and my own misgivings from having formulated an opinion about it without having ever read enough of it to understand what was really being said. I tend to see the scales tipped on the side of truth much more than a devious misguided attempt by the writers to lead me astray of the true meaning of life and why I'm even on this planet. so I stopped trying to convince myself I was going to come up with a better idea, and just focused on understanding the one I was presented with in scripture. I had a tendancy to put more effort into reading John, Mark, Luke, Matthew, Paul and Soloman more than I did Moses, Isaiah, or even David. The former just had more relevance to what was going on in my life than did the latter. I found the most convincing book of the entire bible was Proverbs.
It pulled it all together for me.

If you could convince me that Proverbs is a big fairytale - you could convince me to abandon Christianity. Arguing over Leviticus convinces me of nothing to tell you the truth. To me - Leviticus is the fuel that stokes the fire of unbelief.

Yes I think you are right there. It was probably Neanderthals physiology that was his downfall and why he might have been selected for eventual extinction and destined not to pass on his genetic profile. That is still a topic of debate. They were thought to be extremely advanced and would create their own stone tools and even hunt mammoths for food. Yes 5000 calories a day (even females) would have been easily consumed with the amount of physical activity these people were performing however it is also thought that since they were hunter/gatherers, they tended to gorge themselves after a kill because who knows when the next protein source might make itself available. Thats part of the reason humans developed these "famine resistant" bodies that we still possess today. We are designed as a species to retain fat and calories to stave off starvation. But all that is getting off topic.

This is quite interesting - because it stands in direct contrast to what was stated on the show, unless the genome that the article states differs from that of the T.V. show.

The example discussed on the show was "V-81" (though I'm not exactly sure I remember the number, the letter was definitely V) and did not eminate form Germany. It was sent directly to the company in Connecticut and would not have been investigated from anyone in Germany due to the concern over contamination. According to the scientist who owns the company it will be another two years before the sequencing will be complete.

The show at no time made mention of any previous "common ancestor", and only alluded to the possibility that H.S. decended from Neanderthal - as it remains to be seen what the conclusins will be after the mapping of genome is completed and the potential contaminate DNA discovered, decifered, and separated. A three year process the scientit claimed.

I wonder if we are refering to the same show. The one I saw was on the History channel (though they may have some connection with discovery as well.) I only wished I had tapped it so I could reference the exact statements. Anyway - it was an interesting show. I'm sure it wil be on again. I'll watch for it.

From my point of view everything you've said above makes no sense at all.

You talk about God being so perfect that it is impossible to be as perfect as God so we must all seek redemption.

But what sense does that make?

You're not responsible for having been born into an imperfect world as an imperfect creature. Why should you need to beg for forgiveness and redemption for something that you're not even responsible for?

Moreover, show me the commandment in the Bible that says, "Thou shalt be perfect!"

It just isn't there.

There is a major flaw in this whole scenario. And that is that the scenario itself is imperfect!

If God is so perfect, then why would God have created such an imperfect scenario?

The very idea that people's salvation would depend in any way on one particular story told in one particular culture on Planet Earth is grossly imperfect. The very idea that anyone's 'salvation' depends on having to believe that Jesus Christ was God is an utterly imperfect scenario. Especially when that story is when that story is surrounded by so much confusion and disagreement EVEN by the very religions that claim it to be truth!

That's the most imperfect message a supreme creator could have possible designed.. So much for the idea that the biblical God is perfect.

You'll also never convince me that a supposedly all-knowing, all-powerful, all-perfect God would have ever asked humans to stone sinners to death under any circumstances. That's just isn't the behavior of a perfect deity. There's nothing perfect about that at all.

This God supposedly led his people to the 'promised land'. What do the people find when they get there? They find heathens living on the 'promised land'?

This perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing God couldn't even come up with an empty pieces of real estate to offer as his 'promised land'?

This all-perfect, all-powerful God has to ask his people to go in and murder this whole civilization in order to move onto their 'promised land'?

That's not a story of a perfect God. That's a completely inept story created by men who were looking to justify why they had just murdered a whole civilization and stole their land!

I see nothing perfect about the Biblical God Eljay. And this goes right back to your idea of premises. You claim that the biblical God is all-perfect, yet the stories in the Bible don't support this ideal.

I don't' believe that a perfect God would support male-chauvinism either.

I just don't see anything perfect about the Biblical God. So there's no way that I can accept the premise that the Biblical God is perfect.

This is what I was saying about science. If science tells me as a premise that electricity can't hurt you and I get electrocuted, then I no longer believe in their premises. In science if you can show that a premise is wrong then that premise must be abandoned.

If religion is going to claim the same status as science then we must also abandon it's premises when we discover they are wrong. The premise of the Bible is that god is 'perfect', but I see absolutely nothing 'perfect' about the way in which the biblical God handles problems all throughout the Bible. So the Bible conflicts with this premise that God is 'perfect'.

In science when we discover that a premise is wrong, we stop and change the science. We rewrite it with new premises. However, it's impossible to rewrite the Bible. Once you've discovered that the main premise of the Bible is wrong then you must discard it because there is no way to rewrite it.

The Biblical God is far from perfect. The Bible tells us so in the stories it reveals.

If being less than perfect is to fall short of the "Glory of God" then the biblical God himself has fallen short of his own glory. Who does he go to for repentance?

Eljay,


Yeah I must tell you I dont know which show that is exactly because I looked up the "History Channel" website also and this is all I could find when I entered in search word "Neanderthal"

25,000 B.C. In Europe, arctic glaciers reach as far south as London. Massive predators are on the prowl. Across the continent, two species of primitive man struggle to survive. The Neanderthals are natural hunters, built for brute strength and well-adapted to the cold. However, they lack the understanding of technology and ability to speak in abstract terms that our species has. The Cro-Magnon, Homo sapiens are smarter but more fragile. With exciting new research in anthropology, archaeology and genetics, follow these early humans through a season of survival.

Here is another article detailing the DNA sequencing.

http://www.jqjacobs.net/anthro/paleo/neanderthal.html

If you find it, post. Are you confusing the Cro-Mags and Neanderthal?

I'm not responsible for being here, and the circumstance I was born into, however, having been here for over 50 years - I'd say I'm culpable for many - if not all of my decisions and actions. Aren't you?



You need a refresher course.

1Ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.



The other major flaw in this discussion is your opinions come from a vantage point of ignorance of the text. While you may have read the bible - as you claimed to have, but it is more than obvious that it was certainly not recently, nor did you exhibit much retention.



I can't pretend to know why God did, or does anything. I am severely limited in my ability to be omniscient in order to assimilate all of the facts surrounding any circumstance. But what I can explain is why it is completely irrelivant as to what confusion exists amoungst those who claim to be adherents of christianity. Why would any one else's confusion matter to me? If I find myself being confused over the opinion of another, I investigate the issue for my self - from both pro and con to the issue, and draw my conclusion from that. Not anyone else's actions, belief, or disbelief.



But your answer to the issue of man falling short of perfection is to just dismiss it, and claim to be a nice person. The biblical message may be imperfect in your perception - but your solution is absurd in mine.



I wouldn't attempt to convince you otherwise. I liken it to the argument over the death penalty. There are actions that an individual can commit, with no intention of repentance of any feeling of remorse that warrents them being removed from society. And not by simply caging them like an animal and taking care of them for the rest of their lives. Exterminiation is the only logical solution I can see for those that can absolutely be determined to be unable to be rehabilitated.
I see parallels being drawn from today that I extrapolate back to that time that warrents this to be justifyable. It is the only solution to those whose freedom of choice is a detriment to others.



I don't know how you can come to this conclusion without having the ability to know what the results would have been had they just moved into the promised land and lived their lives reactively. what is imperfect here is your presumption to claim you know what was in the hearts of the "innocents" who were occupting the land at the time. So - not having the ability to discern the hearts of that civilization - I don't presume to have a better idea of what should have been done. I just read it for what it says, and assimilate the information.



I reserve passing judgement on this determination, as I don't percieve the imperfections that you do. I just don't have enough information to draw a conclusion one way or the other. I think that the result of warfare is a consequence of the hearts and actions of man as opposed to a result of a directive from God. It is a consequence that man brings upon himself. I think it much logical to determine that if everyone merely held to the 10 commandments, there would be no war, or even crime on the planet. Heck - just following the golden rule would accomplish that. So why isn't this so? Due to God or man. You tell me.



But you are well aware that sience is not infalible. For years they believed through science that smoking was good for you! Every 5 or so years the opinion about cholesterol changes. Science is trial and error. We have no reason to think that electricity is harmful until it is. But these are the claims of those who can only see what is in front of them, and can onlt determine the future through conjecture. This is not the case with scripture. Prophecy is what it is, and doesn't change to adapt to discovery.



God does not deal with the problems of man - but man immersed in the problems. God does not have the same investment in the planet that man does - because the planet has been left for man to be sterward over. There will come a time when the planet is no more - but man remains eternally. It is the individual that God is concerned with - not the circumstance he has put himself in.



Though I agree with your statement on premises, I fail to see god falling short of perfection due to the decisions and actions of man. I see no connection to that leap in logic.

No. Absolutely positively not!

I am not responsible for the choices I had to make in this life. I was limited to choosing between few options. None of which would have been my choice if I actually had choice!

No Eljay, I am not responsible for the limited options I was given to choose from in this life.

Nor am I responsible for the social standards and conditions that were forced upon me in this life. Nor was I responsible for the poor mentors I had to put up with.

No. I was not responsible for having to deal with a limited situation where there were never any choices that I could make that I was truly happy with!

Moreover, I even tried to make good choices, but those choices were not possible to make because they were dependent upon other people who chose to say no.

I had to take jobs that I did not like. I had to perform tasks that I did not agree with.

I was actually fired from TWO jobs in my early teens because I was TOO HONEST!

Yes, that's the truth!

In one I worked at a service station. I pumped gas, changed tires, and assisted in minor repairs.

Why was I fired? Because would give people HONEST answers to their questions! If they asked me if they needed their oil changed I would check it and if it looked clean and fresh I'd tell them it looks good to me. If they asked me if they needed new tires I'll look at their tires and if they still had lots of tread left I'd tell them their in good shape yet and have quite a few miles left on them.

My boss was very displeased with my honesty and he told me so. None the less I couldn't stop being honest with people, and finally he told me that although I do good work he'll have to get somone else who will talk people into buying tires and getting their oil changed.

This is no joke Eljay. I was young, honest, and naive. I learned very quickly that you can't even keep an HONEST job by being HONEST.

Well, that didn't make me become dishonest. I went on to work at a used truck dealership. I was still quite young and I was just the 'lot boy'. All I did was wash the trucks and keep the lot tidy. But I also got to know the trucks.

When customers would ask me about them I would tell them the TRUTH. I didn't last long at that job either. They let me go telling me that they need someone who can "ignore the flaws in things".

No Eljay, I'm not responsible for the choices I had to make in this life. It's a dog-eat-dog world and I didn't design it to be this way.

I also asked girls out with the intention of being a faithful and true companion. I was definitely marriage minded. And I was seeking a lifemate to live happily everafter with.

You can call me naive all you want. But that was my choice. But the girls said no. They would rather hook up with the guys who were going to beat them, abuse them, get them pregnant, and then leave them.

I never married Eljay. That WASN'T my choice. I was forced to accept that option.

No my life has definitely not been about my choices at all. Not in the least. Not with careers, not with a realationship, not in any way shape or form.

I'm not responsible for having to live a life that I did not chose to live.

Moreover, I have absolutely no guilt whatsoever about any of the choices that I did make. I made the very best choices that were available to me. If they were poor choices it's only because that was all that was available to choose from!

I can't be held repsonsible for not being given the options that I would prefer to choose.

If I'm going to be judged for all of eternity, then the only righteous way to judge me would be to judge me based on the choices I would have made if I actually had a choice!.

Only then could I be judged for who I truly am!.

Anything else would be less than righteous. I would be condemed to eternal damnation for having been put into a world where the choices I would prefer to choose simply weren't availble to chose from.

The would be nothing righteous about that situation!

All I can tell you with absolute certainty Eljay is that I'm on the side of "GOOD".

Therefore if there is such a thing as an all-perfect God who is also on the side of "GOOD", then I guess God and I are on the same side.

Otherwise, God would need to be on the "other" side.

If God is all-just and all-righteous, then my destiny to Seventh Heaven is sealed in stone.

It can't depend on appeasing the "Christians". It can't depend on believing in Christ. It can't depend on anything other than what's truly in a person's heart.

Therefore any religion that claims that it does depend on anything other than what is in your heart has to be a bogus religion. Otherwise good peopel would be condemed. But that would be unjust, unrighteous, and most certainly imperfect. Thus any God that would devise such a scheme would also need to be unjust, unrighteous, and imperfect.

Salvation cannot depend upon religion, or any specific belief in any religious stories of dieties who were supposedly sacrificed to 'save' people.

Either people DESERVE to be 'saved' or they don't. Believing in any particular story isn't going to change what they DESERVE.

If there is a righteous God who judges, he can't be condeming good people just because they didn't align themselves with an organized religion. There would be nothing at all righteous about such a scheme.

In fact, there's nothing rigtheous about a God who condemns in the first place. That very notion is a hostile notion. It's not a divine notion.

The Bible was written by hostile men who wanted to control people using fear and guilt. It has nothing to do with any all-perfect righteous God because no all-perfect righteous God would stoop that low!

Men used the idea of God and religious doctrines to justify their wars, and to justify their male chauvanism. No truly righteous and divine God would condone either of these things.

Hey, if we are Ape's then why are there any real ape's left ? I mean... they should have beaten each other to death or eaten each other by now or som'thin right? Oh, wait... I grew up in Detroit and they are killing and eating each other...never mind.

Ahh I see. So you are showing us your true colors now. I had no idea I was holding a conversation with a sniveling bigot. I would have changed my tone. Have you looked up the chimp/human DNA sequencing yet or are you afraid? Baaa ba ba ba ba.

Why would you want to or expect to "measure up" to your imagined image of a "God?" So you could feel unworthy?

How do you know God is perfect? What makes you believe that? Even if God is perfect, do you think he expects all of his children to be as "perfect" as him with no effort on his part?

According to the Bible, God abandoned the people of the earth. He promised to return and did not return. People are still patiently waiting for the return of their perfect God so they can prostrate themselves before him and feel unworthy.

So man falls short of God... SO WHAT? What did you expect? Perfect carbon copies of God in the form of mankind? Do you have children? Do you expect them to be perfect or at least "measure up" to you?

What kind of thinking is this? Who would want to think like this. Geeeeze... just live you life the best you know how with what you have and stop feeling bad because you can't be perfect like God or measure up to him. That is so self defeating. Such negative thinking.

jb

What???? People from Detroit are mean ...how’s that being a bigot??????

:

NOT RESPONSIBLE?

I am going to be very brutally honest here. You will never ever be 'free' if you do not realize and take responsibility for every moment of your life.

I hate to break it to you, Eljay and Abra, but you are both 100% responsible for being here, and for every decision you have ever made.

You are responsible for being here, for being born in the situation you were born into, and your are responsible for every choice you ever made. You are responsible for everything that happens to you and for every experience in your life.

If you truly want to go out kicking and screaming that it was not your fault, that you are not to blame for your life, for your choices or lack there of, then you will be back soon enough in the next life to learn this fact and to learn responsibility.

You are the one responsible for your life.

There is no savior to save you. Get over it. Take some responsibility, quit whining and blaming everybody else for your lives.

Yes you are responsible. You are the creator.

God gave us Science!!!
Afterall, God made it ALL.
INCLUDING SCIENCE!!!

God gave us Intelligent and Brilliant Scientists, to Seek for answers.
Nothing wrong with that at all!!

BUT..... in the quest for answers, Scientists have NOT YET TO THIS DAY.... Proven that man came from an Ape, or from ANY OTHER SPECIES ....EXCEPT FROM ITS OWN KIND!!!

AND SCIENTISTS WILL NEVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER PROVE MAN EVOLVED FROM A APE , OR ANOTHER SPECIES!!

EVER!!!!

WHY?

Simply Because ....

GOD DOES NOT ...
AND CANNOT ...
GO AGAINST HIS WORD!!!

God's Word Says , HE MADE each Species TO REPRODUCE AFTER ITS OWN KIND !!!!!

AFTER ITS OWN KIND !!!!

AFTER ITS OWN KIND !!!

ONLY!!!!!

And God's Word DOES... NOT ... CHANGE !!!

GOD WOULD HAVE TO BE A LIAR TO CHANGE HIS WORD !!!

BUT SINCE GOD DOES NOT AND CANNOT LIE, NEITHER ...DOES...HIS...WORD!!!!!

GOD'S WORD REMAINS THE SAME ...

YESTERDAY

TODAY

FOREVER.

MANY MANY Scientists , are FINALLY beginning to realize ,that what the Bible(GOD'S WORD) says.... is TRUE After All!!!

MS, will there be cave men in heaven then?

Deuteronomy 24:16

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

You've clearly misunderstood what I've said Jeannie.

I never said that I'm not responsible for the decisions I've made!

All I said is that I'm not responsible for the choices that are available to me!

You believe in the 'law of attraction' and that you create your own life.

Well, if that's so true then why aren't you out doing all these cruises, and things that you always talk about?

Clearly you are being LIMITED in some way.

Is that you're decision to be limited?

Moreover, where do you get off claiming that I'm whining, complaining, or otherwise attempting to blame anyone for anything?

I'm doing no such thing!

All I'm saying is that if a God is going to JUDGE me based on the choices I've made in this life he damn well better take into account the fact that I had limited choices!

That's all I'm saying!

I'm addressing the issue of a God who JUDGES. And I'm speaking to the issue of what would be righteous judgement.

If I could CHOOSE to make the world PERFECT, I would!

Clearly that CHOICE is not available to me to make!

No whining, no complaining, not blaming anyone.

It's just the Honest Brutal Truth Jeanniebean!

My choice is for the world to be perfect. That's my choice. But clearly my choice doesn't mean diddly squat.